| Author | Message | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 871 Registered: 5-2008 |
John was innocent. Henry wasn't. He was arrested for treason, sentenced, and paid for his crime. | ||
| Doriana (Doriana)
New member Username: Doriana Post Number: 3461 Registered: 12-2010 |
The basics - John = H/A/M? Henry = H/A/M? He = Henry? Sentenced - to jail? to death? Time period relevant? Location relevant? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 882 Registered: 5-2008 |
The basics - John = H/A/M? yes Henry = H/A/M? yes He = Henry? yes Sentenced - to jail? this to death? Time period relevant? yesish Location relevant? noish | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1851 Registered: 1-2011 |
Are John and Henry related? If not, did they know about each other? Did Henry try to frame John? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 887 Registered: 5-2008 |
Are John and Henry related? no If not, did they know about each other? John did not know about Henry. Henry knew about John. Did Henry try to frame John? yesish | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1856 Registered: 1-2011 |
Did Henry perform an assault on a ruler? If yes, was John someone of the surrounding of the ruler? Someone responsible for the ruler's safety? Was Henry a spy? Is it relevant in what country it happened? Were Henry and John citizens of the same country? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 890 Registered: 5-2008 |
Did Henry perform an assault on a ruler? no If yes, was John someone of the surrounding of the ruler? no Someone responsible for the ruler's safety? no Was Henry a spy? no Is it relevant in what country it happened? no Were Henry and John citizens of the same country? yes | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1866 Registered: 1-2011 |
Did Henry try to gain power in the country? Is it a true story? Can I ask for a [LTPF list of centuries]? Did Henry break the law of the country? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 894 Registered: 5-2008 |
Did Henry try to gain power in the country? no Is it a true story? yes Can I ask for a [LTPF list of centuries]? yes, but FA I'll ask that you fix first. Did Henry break the law of the country? yes | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1869 Registered: 1-2011 |
Does the situation take place BC? Would Henry's treason be also today regarded as treason? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 898 Registered: 5-2008 |
Does the situation take place BC? no Would Henry's treason be also today regarded as treason? FA and probably | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2641 Registered: 11-2008 |
Were Henry and John contemporaries? If not, was there a difference in decades? centuries? "He was arrested for treason, sentenced, and paid for his crime." he = Henry? his - Henry's? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 900 Registered: 5-2008 |
Were Henry and John contemporaries? no If not, was there a difference in decades? centuries? this "He was arrested for treason, sentenced, and paid for his crime." he = Henry? yes his - Henry's? yes | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 4488 Registered: 1-2007 |
Just checking Treason = An act that violates one's allegiance to one's Monarch? Was John ever charged with Treason? and found not guilty? Did Henry try and use John's case as some sort of legal precendence? Is there any separation between 'sentenced' and 'and paid for his crime' in your puzzle statement? Was jail the only way in which he paid for it? Is there any sucession dispute taking place in either John or Henry's case? Could either John or Henry have faced the death penalty? Was Henry's imprisonment the maximum sentence he could have received? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 18295 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is John alive? Was Henry guilty of treason? Another crime? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1878 Registered: 1-2011 |
Did John do anything that - centuries later - enabled Henry to commit treason? Did Henry try to avoid punishment for treason recalling something about John? Something John did? Are legal precedences relevant? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 904 Registered: 5-2008 |
Just checking Treason = An act that violates one's allegiance to one's Monarch? yes Was John ever charged with Treason? yes and found not guilty? yes Did Henry try and use John's case as some sort of legal precendence? no Is there any separation between 'sentenced' and 'and paid for his crime' in your puzzle statement? yes Was jail the only way in which he paid for it? no and FA Is there any sucession dispute taking place in either John or Henry's case? no Could either John or Henry have faced the death penalty? yes, Henry Was Henry's imprisonment the maximum sentence he could have received? yope Is John alive? well he was alive... but I'll assume you mean at the time of the trial so no. Was Henry guilty of treason? no Another crime? yes | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 905 Registered: 5-2008 |
Did John do anything that - centuries later - enabled Henry to commit treason? yope Did Henry try to avoid punishment for treason recalling something about John? no Something John did? no Are legal precedences relevant? no | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1882 Registered: 1-2011 |
Was Henry arrested for something else than treason? Was he tried for treason? for something else? Was he tried twice? Was he sentenced to jail for treason? for something else? Did he go to jail? Was he sentenced to death for treason? for something else? Was he guilty of treason? Did Henry kill someone? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 910 Registered: 5-2008 |
Was Henry arrested for something else than treason? no, he'd already been arrested for the treason charge when... Was he tried for treason? first this... for something else? ...then this Was he tried twice? no, same trial Was he sentenced to jail for treason? no for something else? yes Did he go to jail? no Was he sentenced to death for treason? no, but... for something else? no Was he guilty of treason? no Did Henry kill someone? no | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1885 Registered: 1-2011 |
Was death penalty sentenced to Henry by authorities? Was he killed in prison? Did he commit suicide in prison? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 913 Registered: 5-2008 |
Was death penalty sentenced to Henry by authorities? no Was he killed in prison? no Did he commit suicide in prison? no He would have been held for the duration of his trial but this is irrelevant. He never served a day of his sentence. | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1888 Registered: 1-2011 |
Was Henry a member of the mafia? Was Henry killed by his fellow criminals? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 924 Registered: 5-2008 |
Was Henry a member of the mafia? no Was Henry killed by his fellow criminals? no | ||
| Shez (Shez)
New member Username: Shez Post Number: 3812 Registered: 2-2011 |
was he sentenced to death in that he had a fatal disease? did he kill himself? did he die in an accident? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 4500 Registered: 1-2007 |
This is interesting... Did he die before he was tried? convicted? sentenced? incarcerated? If he did die do we need to establish the circumstances ? Murdered? natural causes? disease? Is Henry's age relevant? The reference to 'paid for his crime' refers to another crime other than treason, yes? or does it refer to the crime of treason}He was sentenced for that crime? or for treason? Was he innocent of the other crime? Is the other crime murder? some other violent crime? theft? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 927 Registered: 5-2008 |
was he sentenced to death in that he had a fatal disease? He was never sentenced to death, in fact it's unlikely he faced the death penalty for the treason he was accused of - lets just assume it was some severe sentence he faced. However, see my next answers on the point of disease... did he kill himself? yope did he die in an accident? no This is interesting... Did he die before he was tried? no convicted? no sentenced? no incarcerated? yes If he did die do we need to establish the circumstances ? yes Murdered? no natural causes? yope disease? possibly Is Henry's age relevant? no The reference to 'paid for his crime' refers to another crime other than treason, yes? yes or does it refer to the crime of treason}He was sentenced for that crime? he was sentenced for the non-treason crime or for treason? Was he innocent of the other crime? no Is the other crime murder? some other violent crime? theft? none of these | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1894 Registered: 1-2011 |
Was the reason of his death connected with the crime he committed? Did he catch the disease during crime? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 937 Registered: 5-2008 |
Was the reason of his death connected with the crime he committed? indirectly yes; no crime, no early death. Did he catch the disease during crime? yes, though 'catch' is the wrong word. | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1899 Registered: 1-2011 |
Did he commit a terroristic crime? Did he produce illegal substance? Was his crime connected with biological or chemical weapons? Is radiation relevant? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 940 Registered: 5-2008 |
Did he commit a terroristic crime? no Did he produce illegal substance? no Was his crime connected with biological or chemical weapons? no Is radiation relevant? no | ||
| Deholmes (Deholmes)
New member Username: Deholmes Post Number: 276 Registered: 11-2012 |
Did John admit to the crime? to draw Harry out? Did Harry think he was free and clear when John plead guilty? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 952 Registered: 5-2008 |
Did John admit to the crime? no to draw Harry out? no Did Harry think he was free and clear when John plead guilty? no It has been established that John and Henry are separated by centuries. | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2649 Registered: 11-2008 |
Did Henry use John somehow? To reclassify his crime? Was he inspired by John? Was any of them famous? | ||
| Woubit (Woubit)
Moderator Username: Woubit Post Number: 1323 Registered: 5-2007 |
Now that we can invoke the LTPF List of Centuries, perhaps it is time to do so. In what century did John die? In what century did Henry die? You say that Henry "was arrested for treason, sentenced, and paid for his crime". This could mean a number of things, so to clarify: Is it correct that Henry was arrested for the crime of treason? Is it correct that Henry was tried for the crime of treason? Is it correct that Henry was found guilty of treason? Is it correct that Henry was sentenced for the crime of treason? Is it correct that Henry was found guilty of some other crime? and sentenced for some other crime? If so, did it come to light in the course of a trial for treason that Henry had in fact committed some other crime? for which he was sentenced at the end of the trial? This would be a truly bizarre legal process that certainly could not happen under current law in most countries, so perhaps it is time to invoke another LTPF List: In what country or countries did John live during the events relevant to this puzzle? In what country or countries did Henry live during the events related to this puzzle? The phrase "and paid for his crime" is ambiguous in your context; strictly, it means "was [tried...] [...sentenced and] paid for his crime". Do you mean that Henry was rewarded in cash or in kind for committing his crime? Or that he paid a penalty for having committed his crime? This post has gone on far too long without weightless poetry: Treason doth never prosper. What's the reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it treason. | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 954 Registered: 5-2008 |
Did Henry use John somehow? yes To reclassify his crime? no Was he inspired by John? yope Was any of them famous? yes Now that we can invoke the LTPF List of Centuries, perhaps it is time to do so. In what century did John die? irrelevant, just that it was earlier than... In what century did Henry die? ...20th Century You say that Henry "was arrested for treason, sentenced, and paid for his crime". This could mean a number of things, so to clarify: a good approach... Is it correct that Henry was arrested for the crime of treason? yes Is it correct that Henry was tried for the crime of treason? yes Is it correct that Henry was found guilty of treason? no Is it correct that Henry was sentenced for the crime of treason? no Is it correct that Henry was found guilty of some other crime? yes and sentenced for some other crime? yes If so, did it come to light in the course of a trial for treason that Henry had in fact committed some other crime? yes for which he was sentenced at the end of the trial? yes This would be a truly bizarre legal process that certainly could not happen under current law in most countries, so perhaps it is time to invoke another LTPF List: Well to be more accurate; the change in the trial actually occurred before the trial for treason had begun but after Henry's arrest - the distinction is not important to the solution. In what country or countries did John live during the events relevant to this puzzle? In what country or countries did Henry live during the events related to this puzzle? both irrelevant The phrase "and paid for his crime" is ambiguous in your context; strictly, it means "was [tried...] [...sentenced and] paid for his crime". Do you mean that Henry was rewarded in cash or in kind for committing his crime? no Or that he paid a penalty for having committed his crime? this This post has gone on far too long without weightless poetry: I won't object to poetry :) Treason doth never prosper. What's the reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it treason. - John Harington I note one (particularly notable) exception to this rule, which a great many may still happily treason call; many traitors did once betray their king from afar, to establish independence for the colonies of America. - me | ||
| Woubit (Woubit)
Moderator Username: Woubit Post Number: 1325 Registered: 5-2007 |
Sorry to labour the point, but if "the change in the trial actually occurred before the trial for treason had begun but after Henry's arrest", and if there was only one trial (as you seem to imply), then I really don't understand. You can arrest a bloke on suspicion of X and then, if fresh evidence comes to light while he is awaiting trial for X, you can try him for Y. But you can't try him for X and then when it comes to light during the trial that he didn't do X but instead did Y, continue the trial on the basis that it was a trial for Y instead of X. If Henry was on trial for treason, then he could only be found guilty (or not guilty) of treason and sentenced in respect of the crime of treason. True, you could find him innocent of treason and then re-arrest him for Y and have him tried for Y - but I formed the distinct impression that Henry was tried exactly once and sentenced exactly once. Is this impression false? Perhaps I have misunderstood altogether. Are all these "trials" legal trials in 20th-century courts of law? I note one (particularly notable) exception to this rule, which a great many may still happily treason call; many traitors did once betray their king from afar, to establish independence for the colonies of America. - me But the funniest thing was: When I was leavin’ the bay, I saw three ships a-sailin’ - They were all heading my way. I asked the captain what his name was, And how come he didn’t drive a truck; He said his name was Columbus - I just said “Good luck”. Bob Dylan | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 959 Registered: 5-2008 |
Sorry to labour the point, that's fine :) but if "the change in the trial actually occurred before the trial for treason had begun but after Henry's arrest", and if there was only one trial (as you seem to imply), then I really don't understand. You can arrest a bloke on suspicion of X and then, if fresh evidence comes to light while he is awaiting trial for X, you can try him for Y. This is what happened. But you can't try him for X and then when it comes to light during the trial that he didn't do X but instead did Y, continue the trial on the basis that it was a trial for Y instead of X. Though if this were possible, it may have equally as well happened without any significant consequence to the situation, the distinction is unimportant. If Henry was on trial for treason, then he could only be found guilty (or not guilty) of treason and sentenced in respect of the crime of treason. True, you could find him innocent of treason and then re-arrest him for Y and have him tried for Y - but I formed the distinct impression that Henry was tried exactly once and sentenced exactly once. accepted; this similarly could have happened with the same results in terms of sentencing and paying for his crime. Is this impression false? no, you're correct :) Perhaps I have misunderstood altogether. Are all these "trials" legal trials in 20th-century courts of law? yes, though the only relevant details here are; - Henry was arrested for treason. - New evidence came to light that cleared him of treason but implicated him in another crime. - He was sentenced to time in prison for this other crime. - He never went to prison; he paid for this other crime with his life instead. | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 4518 Registered: 1-2007 |
Henry & John are not related but does Henry claim to be a decendant of John's? Was Henry's DNA tested? John's? Was John royalty? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 962 Registered: 5-2008 |
Henry & John are not related but does Henry claim to be a decendant of John's? no Was Henry's DNA tested? no John's? no Was John royalty? no | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1910 Registered: 1-2011 |
Was the new evidence that cleared Henry of treason a medical evidence? a document? fingerprints? footprints? camera records? sound records? witness? Is that relevant? Did Henry pretend to be someone else? Was he using someone else ID papers? Did he commit tax evasion? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 965 Registered: 5-2008 |
Was the new evidence that cleared Henry of treason a medical evidence? a document? fingerprints? footprints? camera records? sound records? witness? no to all Is that relevant? The evidence that cleared him is relevant Did Henry pretend to be someone else? yes Was he using someone else ID papers? no Did he commit tax evasion? no | ||
| Woubit (Woubit)
Moderator Username: Woubit Post Number: 1328 Registered: 5-2007 |
For each of the categories below, please indicate whether Henry's "other crime" falls into the category. (This is what the LTPF List was intended for.) Offence against the person Violent offence Sexual offence Offence against property Forgery, personation and cheating Firearms and offensive weapons Offences against the State / Offences against the Crown and Government Political offences Harmful or dangerous drugs Offences against religion and public worship Offences against public justice Offences against the administration of public justice Public order offence Commerce, financial markets and insolvency Offences against public morals and public policy Motor vehicle offences Conspiracy, incitement and attempt to commit crime Inchoate offence (basically the crime of preparing to commit or seeking to commit another crime) Juvenile delinquency | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 967 Registered: 5-2008 |
Forgery, personation and cheating | ||
| Woubit (Woubit)
Moderator Username: Woubit Post Number: 1330 Registered: 5-2007 |
All of forgery, personation (known to laymen as impersonation) and cheating? If not, which ones? (short LTPF List, that). Henry pretended to be someone else - was this pretence of itself a crime? Did he pretend to be an actual person? or a non-existent person? (to distinguish: he could pretend to be Prince Charles, an actual person; or he could pretend to be Prince Charles's elder brother, a non-existent person). | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 968 Registered: 5-2008 |
All of forgery, personation (known to laymen as impersonation) and cheating? If not, which ones? forgery and also yesish to personation (short LTPF List, that). Henry pretended to be someone else - was this pretence of itself a crime? no Did he pretend to be an actual person? yesish or a non-existent person? no (to distinguish: he could pretend to be Prince Charles, an actual person; or he could pretend to be Prince Charles's elder brother, a non-existent person). | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2651 Registered: 11-2008 |
Did Henry pretend to be John? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 973 Registered: 5-2008 |
Did Henry pretend to be John? Yes, in a specific context. | ||
| Shez (Shez)
New member Username: Shez Post Number: 3846 Registered: 2-2011 |
were Henry and John brothers? twins? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1918 Registered: 1-2011 |
Did Henry dress as John for some kind of party? Did Henry pretend to be John to a relevant third party? If yes, did the third party know it was false? Believe it was true? Did Henry pretend to be John to commit the crime? Or did he commit the crime just by pretending to be John? Did he forge money? Documents? | ||
| Woubit (Woubit)
Moderator Username: Woubit Post Number: 1333 Registered: 5-2007 |
Henry and John lived centuries apart? Yet Henry literally pretended to be John? Was this some play or pageant or other performance? Or did he pretend that he had some role or office that John had previously held? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 977 Registered: 5-2008 |
were Henry and John brothers? no, they lived centuries apart twins? so no Did Henry dress as John for some kind of party? no Did Henry pretend to be John to a relevant third party? yesish If yes, did the third party know it was false? no Believe it was true? yes Did Henry pretend to be John to commit the crime? no Or did he commit the crime just by pretending to be John? yope Did he forge money? no Documents? no Henry and John lived centuries apart? correct Yet Henry literally pretended to be John? No, this is the source of the -ish (and made your questions difficult to answer both fairly and accurately); Henry never dressed up as John, introduced himself to anyone as such, or was recognised by anyone as John - yet, in some specific context, he did pretend to be John and fooled people Was this some play or pageant or other performance? no Or did he pretend that he had some role or office that John had previously held? no | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2652 Registered: 11-2008 |
Was John somehow special/unique in terms of physical appearance? talent? social status? | ||
| Shez (Shez)
New member Username: Shez Post Number: 3853 Registered: 2-2011 |
did he forge a document supposedly witten by John? or a signature? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 983 Registered: 5-2008 |
Was John somehow special/unique in terms of physical appearance? talent? this social status? did he forge a document supposedly witten by John? no, it has been established he did not forge a document or a signature? though he did forge this... | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1933 Registered: 1-2011 |
Did Henry forge a piece of art? Did Henry pretend that what he did was in fact done by John? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 986 Registered: 5-2008 |
Did Henry forge a piece of art? yes :) Did Henry pretend that what he did was in fact done by John? yes | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1941 Registered: 1-2011 |
To be cleared from treason, did Henry have to admit forgery? Was making the piece of art itself regarded as treason? Did Henry sell the forged piece of art? If yes, is it important who bought it? Could Henry legally possess the piece of art, if it was made by John? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 989 Registered: 5-2008 |
To be cleared from treason, did Henry have to admit forgery? yes Was making the piece of art itself regarded as treason? no Did Henry sell the forged piece of art? yes If yes, is it important who bought it? yes Could Henry legally possess the piece of art, if it was made by John? yes (though he'd probably still have to prove it was legally obtained) | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2654 Registered: 11-2008 |
Was the piece of art a painting? Do we need to know the exact identity of Henry? John? the buyer? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 994 Registered: 5-2008 |
Was the piece of art a painting? yes Do we need to know the exact identity of Henry? no John? no the buyer? noish | ||
| Woubit (Woubit)
Moderator Username: Woubit Post Number: 1337 Registered: 5-2007 |
Are there any members of any royal family involved in this puzzle at all? Any heads of state, or other high-ranking government officials? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 1001 Registered: 5-2008 |
Are there any members of any royal family involved in this puzzle at all? no Any heads of state, or other high-ranking government officials? no | ||
| Woubit (Woubit)
Moderator Username: Woubit Post Number: 1339 Registered: 5-2007 |
Is the notion that Henry was originally suspected of having stolen (or otherwise having illegally acquired) this painting? which would have constituted an act of treason? but to defend himself against that charge he had to admit to having forged the painting? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 1004 Registered: 5-2008 |
Is the notion that Henry was originally suspected of having stolen (or otherwise having illegally acquired) this painting? no, so no to rest which would have constituted an act of treason? but to defend himself against that charge he had to admit to having forged the painting? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1955 Registered: 1-2011 |
Is the painting politically incorrect? Was Henry accused of treason because he possessed the painting? Because someone thought he was the original author of the painting? Did admitting forgery clear Henry from treason because: he was not the original author of the painting? he justified having the painting in his possession? Did the buyer want to take revenge on Henry, accusing him of treason? Did the buyer know the painting was fake, before Henry admitted forgery? Was the buyer a ruler? a politician? government? law enforcement? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 1012 Registered: 5-2008 |
Is the painting politically incorrect? no Was Henry accused of treason because he possessed the painting? no Because someone thought he was the original author of the painting? no Did admitting forgery clear Henry from treason because: he was not the original author of the painting? no, he was cleared because he was the original artist, or more specifically... he justified having the painting in his possession? no Did the buyer want to take revenge on Henry, accusing him of treason? no Did the buyer know the painting was fake, before Henry admitted forgery? no Was the buyer a ruler? a politician? government? law enforcement? high ranked military official | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1966 Registered: 1-2011 |
Was Henry accused of treason because the concept of the painting (what the painting shows)? Because of selling it to someone? Because of selling it to that particular buyer? Is it relevant what the painting was painted on? What the painting was painted with? Is it relevant where original painting was kept? Was the buyer mistaken about the identity of the seller? Was the buyer also accused of treason? | ||
| Shez (Shez)
New member Username: Shez Post Number: 3875 Registered: 2-2011 |
was he cleared because they thought he was the original artist? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 1014 Registered: 5-2008 |
Was Henry accused of treason because the concept of the painting (what the painting shows)? no Because of selling it to someone? Because of selling it to that particular buyer? specifically this Is it relevant what the painting was painted on? What the painting was painted with? Only in so far as the materials he used were sufficiently comparable to those used by John. Is it relevant where original painting was kept? FA Was the buyer mistaken about the identity of the seller? no Was the buyer also accused of treason? no was he cleared because they thought he was the original artist? rephrase? RECAP: Henry forged a painting that was recognised as John's. He sold it to a high ranked military official. He was accused of treason and arrested. He cleared himself of treason, thus avoiding the associated penalties of that crime, by admitting to another crime - forgery. He was believed because...? He was sentenced for the crime of forgery/fraud. He never served a day of his sentence. He died as an indirect result of his crime. | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1968 Registered: 1-2011 |
Was the painting examined? Did Henry copy the painting of John? If yes, was the location of the original painting known? Did Henry paint a new painting in style of John? Did Henry die as a result of inhaling the paint? Other painting materials? Did Henry use non-safe materials because he wanted them to be comparable to John's? | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 5295 Registered: 9-2009 |
Is the reason they believed him related to the reason he died? Did he do something detrimental to his health when he: made the painting? Proved he had forged it? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 1019 Registered: 5-2008 |
Was the painting examined? yes Did Henry copy the painting of John? no If yes, was the location of the original painting known? Did Henry paint a new painting in style of John? this Did Henry die as a result of inhaling the paint? no Other painting materials? no Did Henry use non-safe materials because he wanted them to be comparable to John's? irrelevant Is the reason they believed him related to the reason he died? yes Did he do something detrimental to his health when he: made the painting? irrelevant, probably Proved he had forged it? irrelevant. I believe so, but cannot find my reference that supports this. | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1993 Registered: 1-2011 |
Did Henry reveal the technique of copying John's style? Did he admit forging more paintings? Did they believe Henry after having examined the painting? Did they collect other evidence that make them believe Henry? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 1030 Registered: 5-2008 |
Did Henry reveal the technique of copying John's style? yes, OTRT Did he admit forging more paintings? yes Did they believe Henry after having examined the painting? yes Did they collect other evidence that make them believe Henry? yes | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 2005 Registered: 1-2011 |
Is it relevant who was in possession of other Henry's painting in-style-of-John? Was the other evidence fingerprints? footprints? fibres? DNA? witness? documents? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 1032 Registered: 5-2008 |
Is it relevant who was in possession of other Henry's painting in-style-of-John? I think what you're asking is, 'Are owners of any other potential John forgeries by Henry relevant?' To which the answer is yope; There is only one relevant individual owner (that led to his arrest) but also the group of painting owners that pursued him for the fraud charge. Was the other evidence fingerprints? footprints? fibres? DNA? witness? This-ish, no to rest documents? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 2019 Registered: 1-2011 |
Did Henry have an accomplice? Did he teach a student? Is the one relevant owner the military official? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 1034 Registered: 5-2008 |
Did Henry have an accomplice? no Did he teach a student? no Is the one relevant owner the military official? yes | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 2049 Registered: 1-2011 |
Did the military official testify against Henry? Did John use any extraordinary painting technique? Did John use any extraordinary painting materials? Did the military oficial buy the painting on his own behalf? For the military unit? For the government? Did the buyer know the painting was fake when he accused Henry of treason? Were there any earlier laws or regulations concerning John's paintings? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 1036 Registered: 5-2008 |
Did the military official testify against Henry? no Did John use any extraordinary painting technique? irrelevant Did John use any extraordinary painting materials? yes Did the military oficial buy the painting on his own behalf? This For the military unit? For the government? Did the buyer know the painting was fake when he accused Henry of treason? FA Were there any earlier laws or regulations concerning John's paintings? no | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 2065 Registered: 1-2011 |
So the military official did not accuse Henry of treason, but Henry was accused of treason because having sold the painting to that official, correct? Was the military official also accused of treason? Was he opposed to the government? Were John's painting materials harmful for health? Did using them (or comparable ones) cause Henry's death? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 1039 Registered: 5-2008 |
So the military official did not accuse Henry of treason, but Henry was accused of treason because having sold the painting to that official, correct? correct Was the military official also accused of treason? no... Was he opposed to the government? ...and yes, but beware FA Were John's painting materials harmful for health? no Did using them (or comparable ones) cause Henry's death? no | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 2103 Registered: 1-2011 |
Was Henry accused of treason because it looked as if he gave the valuable piece of national art to the military official of opposition? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 1042 Registered: 5-2008 |
Was Henry accused of treason because it looked as if he gave the valuable piece of national art to the military official of opposition? yes :) | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 2120 Registered: 1-2011 |
Ok, so Henry made a new painting in style of recognized national artist, John and pretend it was John's. He sold it to the high-ranked military official of the opposition. Because it looked as if he gave the valuable piece of national art to the military official of opposition, Henry was accused of treason. Then, to avoid punishment for treason, he admitted forgery. He revealed the technique of forgery and admitted having forged more paintings. There was a "this-ish" witness, who made prosecutors believe Henry. The painting was examined, what confirmed Henry's statement. He was cleared of treason, sentenced for forgery but died before going to prison. The reason why they believed him is related to his cause of death. John used extraordinary painting materials, Henry used comparable ones and that's relevant. Correct so far? Were there more relevant people forging paintings? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 1046 Registered: 5-2008 |
Ok, so Henry made a new painting in style of recognized national artist, John and pretend it was John's. He sold it to the high-ranked military official of the opposition. Because it looked as if he gave the valuable piece of national art to the military official of opposition, Henry was accused of treason. Then, to avoid punishment for treason, he admitted forgery. He revealed the technique of forgery and admitted having forged more paintings. All correct so far. There was a "this-ish" witness, who made prosecutors believe Henry. correct-ish - I may have accidentally slightly misled; determine what was witnessed. The painting was examined, what confirmed Henry's statement. He was cleared of treason, sentenced for forgery but died before going to prison. all correct The reason why they believed him is related to his cause of death. indirectly John used extraordinary painting materials, Henry used comparable ones and that's relevant. yes, though not with regards to the trial... Correct so far? mostly, as above Were there more relevant people forging paintings? no, but... | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 5547 Registered: 9-2009 |
Did he make more than one relevant forgery? Did he make any relevant non-forgeries? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 1047 Registered: 5-2008 |
Did he make more than one relevant forgery? yes, several Did he make any relevant non-forgeries? yes | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 2138 Registered: 1-2011 |
Did the witness see Henry making forgery? Making non-forgery? Selling his work to the military official? Did the disease that led to Henry's death attack heart? lungs? death? liver? nerves? head? blood? legs? Was Henry addicted to alcohol? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 1049 Registered: 5-2008 |
Did the witness see Henry making forgery? yes (witnesses) Making non-forgery? no Selling his work to the military official? no Did the disease that led to Henry's death attack heart? lungs? death? liver? nerves? head? blood? legs? he died of a heart attack, due to... Was Henry addicted to alcohol? yes, but also... | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 2159 Registered: 1-2011 |
Did Henry paint in public? If yes, did the audience know he was copying John? Is it relevant what was the painting painted on? Was Henry addicted to nicotine? drugs? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 1052 Registered: 5-2008 |
Did Henry paint in public? yope If yes, did the audience know he was copying John? yes Is it relevant what was the painting painted on? no Was Henry addicted to nicotine? drugs? this | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 2171 Registered: 1-2011 |
Did other factors contribute to Henry's heart attack besides alcohol and drug addiction? Was Henry a student and copy John's style as part of his training? Was Henry a street painter? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 1055 Registered: 5-2008 |
Did other factors contribute to Henry's heart attack besides alcohol and drug addiction? no Was Henry a student and copy John's style as part of his training? no, though he did have a formal education that introduced him to John's work and methods Was Henry a street painter? no | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 2191 Registered: 1-2011 |
Was John also alcohol addict? Drug addict? Did Henry use drugs&alcohol in order to copy John better? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 1059 Registered: 5-2008 |
Was John also alcohol addict? no Drug addict? no Did Henry use drugs&alcohol in order to copy John better? no. Good ideas though | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 2213 Registered: 1-2011 |
Was Henry's heart attack caused only and directly by alcohol and drug addiction? Or is there another relevant factor we should discover? Is the connection between alcohol/drug addiction and forging paintings the only missing piece of the story? |
