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Lateral Puzzles » Solved Lateral Thinking Puzzles » Solved Puzzles - Jan 2005 » {Alizon} Nosey, nosey.... « Previous Next »

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Archive through January 17, 2005Alizon22 1-17-05  8:58 pm
Archive through January 18, 2005Shawn Franchi22 1-18-05  10:09 pm
Archive through January 18, 2005Shawn Franchi22 1-18-05  11:47 pm
Archive through January 22, 2005Alizon22 1-22-05  12:20 am
Archive through January 22, 2005Katy22 1-22-05  7:36 pm
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Katy (Katy)
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 7:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jewellery? Something they were carrying?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 7:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it an item of clothing? Armour? Of religious significance?
Jewellery? Something they were carrying?
none of these
Katy (Katy)
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 7:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they all have a hula hoop round their waists?!
Weapons? Did each bob have one of these objects? 2? more?
miroac (Miroac)
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 8:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, Bill was supposed to be praying, but wasn't. Was he pretending to pray? For the 20's benefit?
The "something" that was "possibly" opened for the investigation... was it Bill's eyes? Was he trying to see something about the 20? but shouldn't have been able to because he was suppose to be praying?
Does anyone die in this? by Tom's sword? Does Bill die? Would he have died if he hadn't been prying?
Was there some kind of contest going on?
Did Tom, the excellent swordsman, not do as well today as he usually does, with his sword?

a lot of these general questions are leading to this specific wild guess...
If Bill had had his eyes closed, would he not have seen Tom's sword about to kill him? But because he had his eyes open, he was able to move out of the way and save his own life?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 8:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they all have a hula hoop round their waists?! no
Weapons? no Did each bob have one of these objects? and therefore, no 2? more?

So, Bill was supposed to be praying, but wasn't. yes Was he pretending to pray? yes For the 20's benefit? no
The "something" that was "possibly" opened for the investigation... was it Bill's eyes? no Was he trying to see something about the 20? yes but shouldn't have been able to because he was suppose to be praying? Could you please rephrase?
Does anyone die in this? yes by Tom's sword? do you mean during the time of this puzzle? Does Bill die? no Would he have died if he hadn't been prying? Most probably
Was there some kind of contest going on? I would not call it a contest
Did Tom, the excellent swordsman, not do as well today as he usually does, with his sword? I do not quite understand what exactly you mean, could you please rephrase?

a lot of these general questions are leading to this specific wild guess...
If Bill had had his eyes closed, would he not have seen Tom's sword about to kill him? certainly, but this is not the point But because he had his eyes open, he was able to move out of the way and save his own life?
probably, but again, this is not the point
miroac (Miroac)
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ok. I don't really want to be overly meticulous, but here goes anyway...
(normally, I think most people associate praying with having your eyes closed, so...)
Does Bill have his eyes open? Was he supposed to? Does Tom know this? Do the Bobs know this?
Do the Bobs expect Bill to be praying? Does Tom expect this?
Do the Bobs think Bill is actually praying? Does Tom think this?
The thing I was trying to ask about Tom was, did he make some kind of mistake with his sword? did he accidentally kill someone in this story? purposefully?
Does Tom kill 1,2,3,... all of the Bobs?
Did Tom die? by his own hand?
Was Bill trying to see if the Bobs were still alive?
Was Tom planning to kill Bill?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 9:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ok. I don't really want to be overly meticulous, but here goes anyway... you can never be meticulous enough

(normally, I think most people associate praying with having your eyes closed, so...) I did not really think of that. Open/closed eyes are irrelevant for our puzzle (although I think that Bill had his eyes open all the time.)
Does Bill have his eyes open? yes, but irrelevant Was he supposed to? irrelevant Does Tom know this? irrelevant Do the Bobs know this? no, and irrelevant
Do the Bobs expect Bill to be praying? no Does Tom expect this? yes!
Do the Bobs think Bill is actually praying? no Does Tom think this? yes!
The thing I was trying to ask about Tom was, did he make some kind of mistake with his sword? I do apologize that I again refuse to answer this question right away, but can you please specify what do you mean by "mistake"? did he accidentally kill someone in this story? no, not accidentally purposefully? yes
Does Tom kill 1,2,3,... all of the Bobs? yes, all the Bobs died by Tom's hand.
Did Tom die? yes by his own hand? no
Was Bill trying to see if the Bobs were still alive? no, he had no doubts about the status of the Bobs
Was Tom planning to kill Bill? yes indeed!
miroac (Miroac)
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 9:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

here's to meticulosity! (I had to look that up, it's actually a word.)
(I think we can drop the Tom/mistake thing. I think you answered what I meant by saying the killing wasn't accidental.)
I've been assuming all 22 were together, in the same room/area at the same time. Is this the case?
So, Bill knows that the Bobs are dead? Does he know how they died? Is he trying to discern how they died? Does he know that Tom killed them? Does he (Bill) know that Tom is planning to kill him (Bill)?
Does Bill know Tom?
Are Bill and Tom in the same room/area right now? If so... Does Bill know Tom is there? Does Tom know Bill is there? Do they see each other?
Is Tom doing this killing...
because he wants to?
acting on behalf of someone else? the government?
Is Tom part of a military? part of an attempt to overthrow a government?
miroac (Miroac)
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 10:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

forgot this...
Does Bill kill Tom? accidentally? on purpose?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 10:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

here's to meticulosity! (I had to look that up, it's actually a word.) don't worry, so had I
(I think we can drop the Tom/mistake thing. I think you answered what I meant by saying the killing wasn't accidental.) OK. I can explain later in the $poiler why I hesitated to answer this question
I've been assuming all 22 were together, in the same room/area at the same time. Is this the case? yes, for some time this was the case
So, Bill knows that the Bobs are dead? yes, he does Does he know how they died? yes, i.e. he knows the general cause of their death Is he trying to discern how they died? and yes, in the sense of establishing some details Does he know that Tom killed them? yes Does he (Bill) know that Tom is planning to kill him (Bill)? yes
Does Bill know Tom? yes
Are Bill and Tom in the same room/area right now? At the time of the prying/not praying? If so, the answer would be "no" If so... Does Bill know Tom is there? Does Tom know Bill is there? see above, they both know where the other one is
Do they see each other? no

Is Tom doing this killing...
because he wants to? yes
acting on behalf of someone else? no the government? no
Is Tom part of a military? no part of an attempt to overthrow a government? no
forgot this...
Does Bill kill Tom? accidentally? on purpose? this one
Shawn Franchi (Doctapeppa)
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 11:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

How many people are dead now?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 11:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

How many people are dead now? Right now, when we are writing this? Most probably all of them, given the time of the puzzle.
But if you refer to the end of the puzzle, only Bill is alive.
Shawn Franchi (Doctapeppa)
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 11:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

were they murdered?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 11:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

were they murdered? Yope. We have already established that Tom killed the Bobs and Bill killed Tom, but I would hesitate to classify it as murder
Shawn Franchi (Doctapeppa)
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 11:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

were they lawfully killed?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 11:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

were they lawfully killed? Not as lawfully as e.g. in case of an execution; however, back then, it was not illegal to kill them in the manner they were killed
Shawn Franchi (Doctapeppa)
Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 12:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

so there was a certain way of killing them that was legal?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 12:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

so there was a certain way of killing them that was legal? exactly. Or at least tolerated.
Shawn Franchi (Doctapeppa)
Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 12:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

or at least tolerated? was there a law against it or not? did anybody get punished for killing in this manner?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 12:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

or at least tolerated? was there a law against it or not? As the method of killing was quite controversial, laws about it were constantly changing. However, there was apparently no law against it in France by that time. Not that I was such a history freak to know it for sure but I infer it from the circumstances of this puzzle which are still to be unearthed did anybody get punished for killing in this manner? certainly yes, I think Cardinal Richelieu was particularly against it and had many people executed for this
miroac (Miroac)
Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 6:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was capital punishment the main reason that Bill killed Tom? that Tom killed the Bobs?
Is there a guillotine involved in the death of the Bobs? of Tom?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 6:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was capital punishment the main reason that Bill killed Tom? no that Tom killed the Bobs? no
Is there a guillotine involved in the death of the Bobs? of Tom?
no, this ingenious device was invented as late as in 1792
miroac (Miroac)
Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 8:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Tom kill the Bobs with a sword? dagger? knife? something similar?
Is it by beheading? stabbing?
Does he intend to kill Bill in the same manner?
Does Bill kill Tom in the same manner?
Were the Bobs all killed at the same time? or was there some time interval between each of their deaths? minutes/hours/days/months?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 8:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Tom kill the Bobs with a sword? this one dagger? knife? something similar?
Is it by beheading? stabbing? this one
Does he intend to kill Bill in the same manner? exactly so
Does Bill kill Tom in the same manner? yes, if you mean "stabbing by sword"
Were the Bobs all killed at the same time? no or was there some time interval between each of their deaths? yes! minutes/hours/days/months? months to years

Excellent questions, Miroac! very much ORT
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 11:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this anything to do with duelling?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 11:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this anything to do with duelling?
That's it!
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 12:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh, I see. In that case, I will exit to the tigers :)
miroac (Miroac)
Posted on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 3:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I forget if we established this or not...
The "better results" for Bill... Is this better result him being able to kill Tom? him staying alive?
The thing he was prying about... Was he trying to determine how Tom killed the Bobs? specifically, what parts of their bodies Tom's sword stabbed them? So he could better defend himself against Tom?
Does this "prying" involve digging up the Bobs? Were they buried? Is this location a graveyard? something similar?
miroac (Miroac)
Posted on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 3:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Bill in the same graveyard as Julius, Anthony, and Brutus (from my puzzle :))?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 1:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I forget if we established this or not...
The "better results" for Bill... Is this better result him being able to kill Tom? most probably, yes him staying alive? definitely yes
The thing he was prying about... Was he trying to determine how Tom killed the Bobs? yes! specifically, what parts of their bodies Tom's sword stabbed them? and yes! So he could better defend himself against Tom? Yes, and yes again.
Does this "prying" involve digging up the Bobs?no Were they buried? not in the sense of being underground, but...Is this location a graveyard? no something similar? yes!

Is Bill in the same graveyard as Julius, Anthony, and Brutus (from my puzzle)? No. It seems Tom was more generous than Anthony when it came to the posthumous tributes to his adversaries...
miroac (Miroac)
Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 2:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ok. This place where Bill is right now... a mausoleum?
Does Tom know the Bobs are buried there?
Is this the place where the duel will take place?
Is this the place where Tom's duels with each of the Bobs took place?
Has Bill been in other duels before? relevant?
Is Tom on his way to the place? Did Bill arrive early? To pry/not pray?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 2:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ok. This place where Bill is right now... a mausoleum? Yes, I think this is an appropriate word... I would describe it as a large crypt with a small adjoining chapel.
Does Tom know the Bobs are buried there? yes he does indeed
Is this the place where the duel will take place? irrelevant, probably not
Is this the place where Tom's duels with each of the Bobs took place? irrelevant, probably not
Has Bill been in other duels before? yes relevant? yes, in the sense that he is a very experienced fencer
Is Tom on his way to the place? no Did Bill arrive early? no To pry/not pray? he certainly did this, but the circumstances were slightly different
miroac (Miroac)
Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 3:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think we're kind of close.
I might be repeating myself on some of these...
There's no other living person besides Bill and Tom that are relevant, correct?
Was Bill "supposed to be" praying in the adjoining chapel? Had he told Tom that's where he would be?
Is this what Tom expected and thought Bill was doing? at the point in time when he was instead prying?
Tom didn't know Bill was prying, correct?
Is the time/place when/where the duel will take place relevant? Is it it minutes/hours/days/... after Bill's prying?
Was anyone actually praying at any relevant point in time?
Is there another place other than the crypt that is relevant in any way?
Were any events other than Tom's and Bill's previous duels relevant? Such as discussions, meetings between the of them? or anyone else?
Were any of Bill's previous duels relevant?
Is this duel public knowledge? Do others plan to witness it? relevant?
Is the act or motion of praying relevant? In other words, does Tom witness Bill at any time and from what he sees he thinks Bill is praying?
Is there something about the praying itself that puts in the Catholicism category? I'm not sure how to word that. In other words, are any of these involved or relevant: "Hail Mary"'s, rosaries, Communion, ...?
I'm all over the place here...
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 9:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If Miroac hasn't quite got it yet, any chance of a recap?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 1:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think we're kind of close. Yes we are indeed! I might be repeating myself on some of these...
There's no other living person besides Bill and Tom that are relevant, correct? that's right
Was Bill "supposed to be" praying in the adjoining chapel? touché! yes! Had he told Tom that's where he would be? Another valid hit, yes
Is this what Tom expected and thought Bill was doing? touché again! at the point in time when he was instead prying? and again, right on the target. Yes.
Tom didn't know Bill was prying, correct? Correct.
Is the time/place when/where the duel will take place relevant? yope Is it it minutes/hours/days/... after Bill's prying? it was hours
Was anyone actually praying at any relevant point in time? no
Is there another place other than the crypt that is relevant in any way? no
Were any events other than Tom's and Bill's previous duels relevant? yesish Such as discussions, meetings between the of them? yes or anyone else?
Were any of Bill's previous duels relevant? no, only to the extent that he was an experienced fencer
Is this duel public knowledge? most probably yes Do others plan to witness it? probably yes relevant? yesish
Is the act or motion of praying relevant? In other words, does Tom witness Bill at any time and from what he sees he thinks Bill is praying? no, this was off-target
Is there something about the praying itself that puts in the Catholicism category? I'm not sure how to word that. In other words, are any of these involved or relevant: "Hail Mary"'s, rosaries, Communion, ...? I see. No, Catholicism was only slightly relevant because Catholics sometimes bury their dead in crypts with adjoining chapels.
If Miroac hasn't quite got it yet, any chance of a recap? Miroac has said almost everything that had to be said. I will therefore insert rather the


***********SPOILER**************

Bill (whose real name was Count Kinsky) was one of the best fencers in the Central Europe of his time. In 1714, he went to France to accomplish a diplomatic mission. There he was sought by Tom (actually Marquess Arthur de Châteauloup) who was at that time considered the best fencer in France. Tom (for the sake of clarity, let us continue to give them the names we used in the puzzle) was obviously unable to stand that anyone could be considered a better swordsman than himself. He used some pretext to invite Bill to his castle, showed him round and ended the tour in the family crypt where lay the embalmed bodies of twenty of his former adversaries (the Bobs), and at the same time called Bill out for a duel. Bill, as the envoy of the Emperor of Austria, could have easily refused, but Tom's arrogance irritated him so much that he accepted. He only asked to be left alone in a small chapel adjacent to the crypt, pretending that he wanted to say his prayers before such a difficult assault. Tom, who did not doubt that Bill was already parting with his life, wilingly agreed. However, when left alone in the chapel, Bill was quite busy with prying rather than praying. He calmly inspected all the corpses of the 20 former Tomís adversaries, finding that all of them had a mortal wound in the heart and that they all were stabbed in the same way, from below upwards. Being an experienced fencer, he was able to figure out what trick had Tom used to kill the poor chaps, and during the duel, which was held the very evening, he was able to parry the mortal attack. Tom was disconcerted, started making mistakes (you see, Miroac, he did make a mistake but I thought it would be rather misleading if I answered yes to your question) and Bill finally killed him.

Shortly thereafter, Bill bought a manor, retired from the politics and was reported to never touch the sword again.

Now, I hope youíll agree with me that sometimes you can be better off prying than praying.

Thank you all folks for the excellent teamwork and Miroac for the winning hit!
miroac (Miroac)
Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 6:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cool. That was a good story, Alizon. My first hit!
I think I like LPs.
I understand the way you answered the questions now.
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 8:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My pleasure, Miroac!
Katy (Katy)
Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 9:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good puzzle, sorry I missed the end
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 7:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nevermind, Katy. You scored several hits and thus contributed to the victory of the entire team. Thank you for joining in!

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