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Quintus Marcius (Philippus)
Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So the thread forms a circle near the base of the hat?
Is the idea that this restricts the circumference of the hat at the base, in the same way that a balloon tapers towards the bottom?

Was OH inspired by the use of the thread? the metal frame? the resulting shape? the folding of the hat fabric to reduce the hat's cricumference?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 11:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Quintus Marcius (Philippus) on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 10:49 pm:


So the thread forms a circle near the base of the hat? exactly so :)

Is the idea that this restricts the circumference of the hat at the base, in the same way that a balloon tapers towards the bottom? no - the idea is that the base of the bonnet is where most of the frame resides, but...

Was OH inspired by the use of the thread? very much so the metal frame? the resulting shape? the folding of the hat fabric to reduce the hat's cricumference? and very much not any of the others. Good questions.
Quintus Marcius (Philippus)
Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 10:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does OHP use thread?
Does OHP use something that has the same effect as the thread, albeit not on fabric?
Does OHP rather create something that will provide the same effect as the thread in further manufacturing processes?
Is metal wire involved in OHP?

Just to make sure that I've got the hat right now:
There is a cylindrical hat comprising fabric supported by a metal frame. At the top of the cylinder there is a thread. Above this, the fabric "balloons" out.
Are there metal spokes radiating from the top of the main frame?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 12:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Quintus Marcius (Philippus) on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 10:22 pm:

Does OHP use thread? see below
Does OHP use something that has the same effect as the thread, albeit not on fabric? exactly so :)
Does OHP rather create something that will provide the same effect as the thread in further manufacturing processes? the "effect of the thread" in OHP is nothing like the "effect of the thread" in HMP. However, both processes involve encasing metal in something like thread.
Is metal wire involved in OHP? very much so - excellent question

Just to make sure that I've got the hat right now:
There is a cylindrical "conical" might be closer to the mark hat comprising fabric supported by a metal frame. there is At the top of the cylinder there is a thread. no - at the bottom of the cone, there is metal wire encased in thread. You may think of the hat, if you like, as a disc (round the brow of the wearer) that supports an elaborate ballon-like structure (atop the head of the wearer). Above this, the fabric "balloons" out. more or less. I am not quite sure what image you have in your mind, but it seems to me close enough to the real thing :)
Are there metal spokes radiating from the top of the main frame? see above
Quintus Marcius (Philippus)
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 11:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the metal wire the "something like thread" mentioned above?
Or is it simply used to make up the frame?
Is the metal wire used for its conductive properties?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 11:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Quintus Marcius (Philippus) on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 11:44 pm:

Is the metal wire the "something like thread" mentioned above? no - in both processes, the metal wire is surrounded by some thread-like thing
Or is it simply used to make up the frame? yes
Is the metal wire used for its conductive properties? in the case of bonnets, no. In the case of OHP, very much yes. Now we're getting somewhere - good question :)
Quintus Marcius (Philippus)
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 11:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I fear I have merely stumbled into something in the dark. Sadly, it doesn't seem to be a light switch.

Is the metal wire in OHP conducting heat? electricity?
Is the thread in OHP acting as insulation?
Is OHP manufacturing power? or is this merely the role of the metal wire within an OHP of larger scope?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 12:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Quintus Marcius (Philippus) on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 11:31 pm:

I fear I have merely stumbled into something in the dark. Sadly, it doesn't seem to be a light switch very much on the contrary...

Is the metal wire in OHP conducting heat? electricity? this one
Is the thread in OHP acting as insulation? exactly so
Is OHP manufacturing power? or is this merely the role of the metal wire within an OHP of larger scope? this one. Almost there. Keep going :)
Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin)
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 11:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the thread/metall bend or twist during the OHP?
Quintus Marcius (Philippus)
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 11:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Isn't it more likely to vibrate? or spin round?
I'm now thinking about dynamos, but that doesn't sound quite right.
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 1:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin) on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 11:17 pm:

Does the thread/metal bend or twist during the OHP? well, the thread is wound around the metal, yes

By Quintus Marcius (Philippus) on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 11:31 pm:

Isn't it more likely to vibrate? or spin round?
I'm now thinking about dynamos, but that doesn't sound quite right. not dynamos. Stick with insulation. And reflect on why it was that cotton needed to be wound around the metal framework of a hat during the HMP :)
Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin)
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 10:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What I ment, is the thread or the metall or both in motion during the process? Is it necessary for the thread to be flexible? Or was normal plastic insulation not available or invented then?

By the way, why is it called insulation, not isolation?

Was the metall in the hat likely (or feared) to conduct current (or heat), too?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 10:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin) on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 10:23 pm:

What I ment, is the thread or the metal or both in motion during the process? yes, as it happens, but this does not really matter Is it necessary for the thread to be flexible? yes Or was normal plastic insulation not available or invented then? indeed it was not - we are dealing with the mid-19th century here

By the way, why is it called insulation, not isolation? interesting question - the verb "to insulate" meant originally "to make into an island" by surrounding with water, but the OED gives "to cut off or isolate from conducting bodies by the interposition of non-conductors", so I guess the terms are pretty much synonymous in this context

Was the metal in the hat likely (or feared) to conduct current (or heat), too? no
Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin)
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 11:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Uh, is the cotton only around the metal during the HMP, that is, is it removed later?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 11:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin) on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 11:11 pm:

Uh, is the cotton only around the metal during the HMP, that is, is it removed later? no - it remains wrapped around the metal
Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin)
Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 9:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, are we to find out what the cotton is good for during the HMP? Or after the HMP, say, when wearing it? Or does the function not change?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 9:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin) on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 09:31 pm:

So, are we to find out what the cotton is good for during the HMP? well, I guess that this is all there is left. To tell you the truth, I am inclined to think that enough has been done, but if you would like to think about why cotton needed to be wrapped around the metal frame of a bonnet, I am sure you will get there :) Or after the HMP, say, when wearing it? the wearers might not have liked to wear it without cotton round the frame Or does the function not change? I am not quite sure what this means. The function of what was wrapped around metal was entirely practical in OHP - it was for insulation. The function of the cotton wrapped around metal in HMP was purely decorative.
Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin)
Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 5:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Have you just told me the answer to my first question in the answer to my third?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin) on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 05:25 pm:

Have you just told me the answer to my first question in the answer to my third? perhaps :) You may now have enough to put it all together...
Quintus Marcius (Philippus)
Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 3:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A couple of reasons people might not want bare metal in their hats:

If the metal would otherwise come into direct contact with the wearer's head, encasing it in cotton might well increase the comfort involved.
If the metal would otherwise come into direct contact with the fabric of the hat, encasing it in cotton should reduce the chance of the fabric wearing through.
Is either of these theories correct?
If not, without the cotton would the metal be visible while the hat is worn?
And the cotton is much easier to make decorative, for example by dyeing it?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 4:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Quintus Marcius (Philippus) on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 03:52 pm:


A couple of reasons people might not want bare metal in their hats:

If the metal would otherwise come into direct contact with the wearer's head, encasing it in cotton might well increase the comfort involved. true, but not especially relevant
If the metal would otherwise come into direct contact with the fabric of the hat, encasing it in cotton should reduce the chance of the fabric wearing through. ditto
Is either of these theories correct?
If not, without the cotton would the metal be visible while the hat is worn? yes, indeed
And the cotton is much easier to make decorative, for example by dyeing it? exactly so :)
Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin)
Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 9:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, lets try to put it together:
Our hero is producing hats. Its pretty hard/expensive to make them look nice, as the metal frame isn't exactly a sight for sore eyes. He then sees a ballon where the metal frame is covered in cotton. He does just the same, now easily being able to dye the cotton any way he likes.

There's probably something missing as this doesn't seem to me enough... woubitesk.
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 9:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin) on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 09:00 pm:


Ok, lets try to put it together:
Our hero is producing hats. Its pretty hard/expensive to make them look nice, as the metal frame isn't exactly a sight for sore eyes. He then sees a ballon where the metal frame is covered in cotton. He does just the same, now easily being able to dye the cotton any way he likes. Our Hero isn't producing hats. Our Hero is making use of a process used in the making of hats to make something else altogether. However, the wrapping of cotton around the metal frame of a Lunardi bonnet is extremely important to Our Hero...
Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin)
Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 9:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, what was first? the hat making process or the balloon making process?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 11:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin) on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 09:40 pm:

So, what was first? the hat making process or the balloon making process? the balloon-making process was first, which inspired the hat-making process, which in turn inspired Our Hero's process, in which neither ballons nor hats were involved
Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin)
Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 11:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh, so we are talking about three processes now - I knew I should have read the whole puzzle...
At any rate, I'm a little lost - what to find out?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 9:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Simply this: why did the process of wrapping cottton around metal wire assist Our Hero to make his fortune?
Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin)
Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 10:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, in OHP, the cotton acts as insulation again, instead of decoration, correct? Could the BMP directly have inspired OH? Or is there some quality about the hat (making process) that the balloon (mp) didn't have?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin) on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 10:55 am:

So, in OHP, the cotton acts as insulation again, instead of decoration, correct? absolutely - well done :) Could the BMP directly have inspired OH? yes Or is there some quality about the hat (making process) that the balloon (mp) didn't have? no - the hats were inspired by the ballooons, that is all.

***** SPOILER *****

William Henley, Our Hero, was a humble labourer who in 1829 decided to seek his fortune in London.

As he made the long journey to the metropolis, another man of lowly origin was performing an experiment there that would change the course of history forever. In a basement of the Royal Institution, Michael Faraday was making a copper coil to carry an electric current.

Each turn of the wire had to be insulated from the next, so Faraday painstakingly wrapped the wire in cotton, put calico between the layers, and fixed the wrappings in place with varnish.

As Faraday toiled, Henley was working in London's docks by day and teaching himself the principles of the new science of electricity by night. When in 1831 Faraday discovered the phenomenon of electromagnetic induction, a powerful new technology was born. The desperate need now was for a process that could produce large quantities of insulated copper wire.

Scientists did not really know how to go about doing this - they had been accustomed to buying ready-insulated wire from makers of tapestries, who had for centuries used wire bound in silk ribbon in their works. But this was an expensive process, and nothing like enough wire was being produced in this way to meet the needs of industry.

In September of 1784 a young Italian daredevil, Vincenzo Lunardi, had captured public imagination in England by flying a hydrogen balloon 24 miles over the city, accompanied (for some reason) by a dog, a cat, and a pigeon. One of the consequences of this was the creation of the "Lunardi bonnet" - a hat made to resemble a balloon. These bonnets rapidly became the most fashionable item of clothing in England.

Absurd thought this piece of millinery was, it depended for its very existence on a complicated metal frame whose wires were wrapped in cotton. This wire was made of iron, too inflexible for use in electric motors - but Henley saw that the process could readily be adapted to the production of insulated copper wire.

Borrowing the techniques of the bonnet manufacturers, Henley set up a plant that produced insulated copper wire by the mile. By the 1850s, Henley had monopolised the market in the production of electric wire and cable, and had made his fortune.

Unfortunately, though a self-taught scientist of great acumen and a wonderful mechanic, Henley was no businessman. Over-expansion and the loss of one of his cable-laying ships (uninsured) led to his ruin, and he died a bankrupt. But for a while at least, he was grateful to a balloonist.

Robert Burns, as I mentioned, referred to the Lunardi bonnet in his poem "To a Louse":

I wadna been surprised to spy
You on an auld wife's flannen toy,
Or aiblins some bit duddie boy
On's wyliecoat.
But Miss's fine Lunardi! fye!
How daur ye do't?


though perhaps Henley might have done better to heed the words that end the poem:

O, wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us
An' foolish notion.
What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us
An' e'en Devotion.


Well done Martin, thanks to all who joined in :)

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