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Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Post Number: 425
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Multiplication could help. Addition would not.
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 1214
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Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 1:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Multiplication of a number? or as in procreation? Is the title relevant? Are we dealing with a mathmatical puzzle?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Post Number: 426
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Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 2:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Multiplication of a number? Yes.
or as in procreation? No.
Is the title relevant? Sort of a hint, but not required to solve this puzzle.
Are we dealing with a mathmatical puzzle? No.
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 1216
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Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 2:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So multiplication of a number would help - solve a problem? a world problem? war? famine? energy supply? global warming? any conservation considerations?

Or would multiplying the number help one individual or a smaller group?
Arek_fu (Arek_fu)
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Post Number: 351
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 3:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Star Trek relevant at all?
Abcpuzzle (Abcpuzzle)
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Post Number: 34
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Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 3:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Multiplying as in 6x3 multiplication?
Or multiplication as in it literally multiplies like bacteria. (e.g. The number 6 multiplies into two 6's and that multiplies into four 6's and then to eight 6's.)
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Post Number: 427
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Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 7:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So multiplication of a number would help - solve a problem? Yes.
a world problem? Certainly not.
war? famine? energy supply? global warming? any conservation considerations? Not related to any of these.

Or would multiplying the number help one individual or a smaller group? A small group.

Star Trek relevant at all? No.

Multiplying as in 6x3 multiplication? Yes.
Or multiplication as in it literally multiplies like bacteria. No. (e.g. The number 6 multiplies into two 6's and that multiplies into four 6's and then to eight 6's.)
Ddrapayo (Ddrapayo)
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Post Number: 97
Registered: 4-2008
Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 10:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Math problem?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Post Number: 428
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Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 11:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Math problem? The problem to be solved? No.
Travis (Travis)
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Post Number: 75
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2008 - 1:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have to ask: is 63 (Seven of Nine, or 7 x 9) relevant?
Alex319 (Alex319)
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Post Number: 766
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Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2008 - 2:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy relevant? 6x9=42?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Post Number: 429
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Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2008 - 6:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have to ask: is 63 (Seven of Nine, or 7 x 9) relevant? No.
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy relevant? No.
6x9=42? No, not even in my puzzle. ;)
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Post Number: 430
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Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2008 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

RECAP
A group of people wants to solve a problem. In effect, some numbers might add up, or multiply.
If the numbers add, the problem most likely is not solved. (though, there is a small chance that it is solved, in theory)
If the numbers multiply there is a good chance that the problem is solved. (though, it's not guaranteed)
The problem itself is not a math problem. Adding or multiplying numbers is not required to solve the problem.
Star Trek and Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy are not relevant here.
Arek_fu (Arek_fu)
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Post Number: 355
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2008 - 5:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are we talking about a number of items? Of people? Of concepts? Or do they represent some measurements? If so, mass? Volume? Length? Area? Time? Temperature? Electricity-related quantities?
Ddrapayo (Ddrapayo)
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Post Number: 99
Registered: 4-2008
Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2008 - 5:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would the chance that the problem be solved by addition be if the numbers were 2 and 2 (which both multiply and add to 4)? Is the resulting answer the only thing that matters, or is how it was derived important? Are the numbers all integers (i.e. 2, 9, 666, etc. but not 5.2)? Is this relevant?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Post Number: 431
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Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2008 - 9:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are we talking about a number of items? Could be seen like this,
Of people?
Of concepts? or this,
Or do they represent some measurements? but this is closest.
If so, mass? Volume? Length? Area? Time? Temperature? Electricity-related quantities? But nothing of this.

Would the chance that the problem be solved by addition be if the numbers were 2 and 2 (which both multiply and add to 4)? Not sure how to answer this. It is not at the group's disposition what numbers to add or multiply. In the case the numbers add, the addition would be 2 + 1, in case they multiply it would be 2 * 2.

Is the resulting answer the only thing that matters, or is how it was derived important? The result matters, not how it was derived. (but beware of false conclusions ..)
Are the numbers all integers (i.e. 2, 9, 666, etc. but not 5.2)? Yes.
Is this relevant? Probably not.
Arek_fu (Arek_fu)
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Post Number: 359
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2008 - 11:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they measurements of quantities related to...
...chemistry?
...physics?
...biology?
...any other natural science? (are there any other?)
...engineering?
...psychology?
...sociology?

Statistics relevant?

Are all the numbers positive?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Username: Sundowner

Post Number: 432
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Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2008 - 2:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they measurements of quantities related to...
...chemistry? No.
...physics? No.
...biology? No.
...any other natural science? No. (are there any other? Yes. ;))
...engineering? No.
...psychology? No.
...sociology? No.

Statistics relevant? Not really.

Are all the numbers positive? Yes.

Sorry if my answers may be somewhat disappointing. It is perhaps not the right direction to think of these numbers as measurement of something physical. And perhaps "figures" would be a better word than "measurements".
Arek_fu (Arek_fu)
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Post Number: 361
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Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2008 - 3:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sweet.

Prices? Money involved?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Username: Sundowner

Post Number: 433
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Posted on Friday, June 13, 2008 - 9:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Prices? No.
Money involved? Well, money is involved almost everywhere, and we might also here assume that solving the problem will have some monetary benefit for the group. But the numbers mentioned before are not units of money. They are something different.

As this puzzle depends somewhat on the development of current events I might update you that now the alternative "addition" certainly would mean that the problem is not solved, and the alternative "multiplication" that it is.
Arek_fu (Arek_fu)
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Post Number: 386
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 12:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Let's try from a different angle. I understand this puzzle concerns an event in progress. Would this puzzle be possible if the event had already taken place? If it took place, say, 1 month ago? 1 year? 10 years? 50 years? 200 years? 1000 years?

Is any technology relevant to the puzzle? Computers? Internet? Cars? Electricity? Other?

The group that would benefit from the solution of the problem, do they all know each other? Do they share the same job? Do they live in the same city? The same country? Are they all adults? Do they all belong to the same gender?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Post Number: 436
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Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 9:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Let's try from a different angle. I understand this puzzle concerns an event in progress. Very much so.
Would this puzzle be possible if the event had already taken place? The puzzle statement would not make much sense, then, because then it would be known whether it is "addition" or "multiplication" and whether the problem had been solved.
If it took place, say, 1 month ago? 1 year? 10 years? 50 years? 200 years? 1000 years? This would not change much, except, perhaps, that nobody would care if it had been several centuries ago, and then there would be no puzzle on it. ;)

Is any technology relevant to the puzzle? No.
Computers? Internet? Cars? Electricity? Other? Nothing like this.

The group that would benefit from the solution of the problem, do they all know each other? Yes.
Do they share the same job? Yes.
Do they live in the same city? No.
The same country? Most of them, but not all.
Are they all adults? Yes.
Do they all belong to the same gender? Yes, they're all male.
Arek_fu (Arek_fu)
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Username: Arek_fu

Post Number: 394
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 11:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do the people in the group work in any of the following fields?

Artistic/musical/writer?
Banking / financial / real estate?
Clerical / Administrative?
Computer related / Hardware ?
Construction / Craftsman ?
Education / Academic Research ?
Entertainment / Media ?
Executive / Management ?
Hospitality / Travel ?
Legal Services ?
Manufacturing / Distributions ?
Medical / Health Services ?
Politics / Government / Military ?
Security / Law Enforcement?
Sales / Marketing ?
Technical / Science / Engineering ?
Teaching / Child care?
Transportation /Livery / Trucking ?
Food Service ?
Sports?
Entertainment?
Jailbird / Criminal?
Religion?
Other?

Why does it always boil down to this list?

Relevant what country most of them are in? Relevant how many they are?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Username: Sundowner

Post Number: 437
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Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 9:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do the people in the group work in any of the following fields? Yes.

Artistic/musical/writer?
Banking / financial / real estate?
Clerical / Administrative?
Computer related / Hardware ?
Construction / Craftsman ?
Education / Academic Research ?
Entertainment / Media ?
Executive / Management ?
Hospitality / Travel ?
Legal Services ?
Manufacturing / Distributions ?
Medical / Health Services ?
Politics / Government / Military ?
Security / Law Enforcement?
Sales / Marketing ?
Technical / Science / Engineering ?
Teaching / Child care?
Transportation /Livery / Trucking ?
Food Service ?
Sports? This,
Entertainment? or this, depending on your view.
Jailbird / Criminal?
Religion?
Other?

Why does it always boil down to this list? Because the rule allows only yes/no questions.

Old hands in this forum might remember that there used to be several "default" lists, like a LPF list of countries, LPF list of areas of work, LPF list of reasons for killing someone's neighbor, ..
This saved a lot of typing.
However, some puzzle hosts (including me) may also answer a question directly when it is obvious that a "yes" or "no" merely will result in a list in the next post.
So, you just might try to ask "In which field the group is working?"



Relevant what country most of them are in? Yes. Germany.
Relevant how many they are? Somewhat. They're about 20 - 30.
Arek_fu (Arek_fu)
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Post Number: 400
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Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 9:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)


quote:

Why does it always boil down to this list? Because the rule allows only yes/no questions.



I know, I mean that this particular list pops up in every other puzzle!

Is it a sports team? The German national team? A club team?

Are they football players? Current European championships relevant? Addition or multiplication of points? Goals? Something similar?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Username: Sundowner

Post Number: 438
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Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a sports team? Yes.
The German national team? Yes.
A club team? No.

Are they football players? Yes.
Current European championships relevant? Yes.
Addition or multiplication of points? Yes.
Goals? And this.
Something similar?
Unleashedllama (Unleashedllama)
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Post Number: 101
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Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 12:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are we getting Klose? (sorry)

Are previous European Championships also relevant?

Anything to do with them trying to avoid (which they have done now) being the first team to miss out in the group stage of the European Championships three Championships in a row?
Ddrapayo (Ddrapayo)
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Post Number: 109
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Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything to do with the number of goals they've scored? Goal differential? Adding/multiplying the number of goals?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Post Number: 439
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Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are we getting Klose? (sorry) You hit the target. (unlike Klose)

Are previous European Championships also relevant? Very much so.

Anything to do with them trying to avoid (which they have done now) being the first team to miss out in the group stage of the European Championships three Championships in a row? Yes.

Anything to do with the number of goals they've scored? Yes.
Goal differential? No.
Adding/multiplying the number of goals? Yes.
Unleashedllama (Unleashedllama)
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Post Number: 105
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Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 3:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Germany Euro 2000 = 1 goal, 1 point
Germany Euro 2004 = 2 goals, 2 points
...so adding again:
Germany Euro 2008 = 3 goals, 3 points (would have been no good)

Is this right?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Username: Sundowner

Post Number: 440
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Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 3:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Now, this is enough to declare a

SPOILER


The performance of the German national soccer team at EURO Championships is notoriously bad. At the EURO 2000 we finished off with one point and one goal. In 2004 we improved only marginally: two points and two goals, still not enough to proceed to the quarter final.

When I was setting this puzzle I was thinking whether this could be a trend, and if so, what kind of a trend.

If it was an additive trend we could expect three points and three goals -- most likely not enough for the quarter final. (though, in theory, possible)
With a multiplicative trend, on the other hand, we could hope for four points and four goals -- with the incredible luck our team usually has in such tournament this could bring us to the next stage.

And this puzzle finished just in time: yesterday the German team beat Austria 1-0, thus, finishing up with 6 points and 4 goals, fulfilling the multiplicative trend for the goals, and even over-fulfilling it for the points.


Thanks to all who participated. Hope you enjoyed it.

The title: Nine points is the maximum a team can reach in the group stage. (three matches)
Seven points are safe to qualify for the quarter final, as the best two teams of each group proceed, and a team with seven points is always at least second.

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