| Author | Message | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 206 Registered: 11-2008 |
There was an expression of rapt concentration on her face as she was killing him. She just had to get her own revenge for what he did to her. | ||
| Racoonieboy (Racoonieboy)
New member Username: Racoonieboy Post Number: 53 Registered: 10-2008 |
Next time, put your name on the title. Is what he did relevant? He= H? A? M? Her= H? A? F? Are they married? Related? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 207 Registered: 11-2008 |
Next time, put your name on the title. Geez, that's true. Thanks the moderator for doing this for me Is what he did relevant? Yes He= H? A? M? Yes Her= H? A? F? Yes Are they married? No Related? In a way | ||
| D_gordon (D_gordon)
New member Username: D_gordon Post Number: 107 Registered: 11-2008 |
Were they ever trapped on a desert island together? Are they related by marriage? Is "what he did" illegal in most countries? | ||
| Bolapara (Bolapara)
New member Username: Bolapara Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2008 |
Did he truly attack her? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 229 Registered: 11-2008 |
Were they ever trapped on a desert island together? No Are they related by marriage? No Is "what he did" illegal in most countries? Yes Did he truly attack her? Yes | ||
| D_gordon (D_gordon)
New member Username: D_gordon Post Number: 126 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is this a fictional story? A historical event? FYOI? When he did the thing she is now avenging, was he an officer of a government? Any genocides relevant? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 243 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is this a fictional story? No A historical event? Yes FYOI? No When he did the thing she is now avenging, was he an officer of a government? No Any genocides relevant? No | ||
| D_gordon (D_gordon)
New member Username: D_gordon Post Number: 146 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is the time of the event relevant? Did it take place in [LTPF list of centuries]? Is the location of the event relevant? Did it take place in [LTPF list of continents]? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 260 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is the time of the event relevant? Noish to yope Did it take place in [LTPF list of centuries]? In 17th century Is the location of the event relevant? Noish Did it take place in [LTPF list of continents]? Europe | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1599 Registered: 12-2004 |
There was an expression of rapt concentration on her face as she was killing him. She just had to get her own revenge for what he did to her. The antecedent of the first "her" in the puzzle statement shall be code-named "Mrs. Q". The antecedent of the first "him" shall be code-named "Larry". There was an expression of rapt concentration on Mrs. Q's face(?) As Mrs. Q(?) was killing Larry. Mrs. Q(?) just had to get Mrs. Q's(?) own revenge for what Larry(?) did to Mrs. Q(?). | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 262 Registered: 11-2008 |
There was an expression of rapt concentration on her face as she was killing him. She just had to get her own revenge for what he did to her. The antecedent of the first "her" in the puzzle statement shall be code-named "Mrs. Q". The antecedent of the first "him" shall be code-named "Larry". OK There was an expression of rapt concentration on Mrs. Q's face(?)Yes As Mrs. Q Yes was killing Larry Yes. Mrs. Q No just had to get Mrs. Q's(?)No own revenge for what Larry No did to Mrs. Q No. | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1602 Registered: 12-2004 |
Excellent. Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen... She just had to get her own revenge for what he did to her. The antecedent of the word "she" shall be code-named "Jen". The antecedent of the word "he" shall be code-named "Moe". Jen just had to get Jen's(?) own revenge for what Moe did to Jen(?). | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 265 Registered: 11-2008 |
The antecedent of the word "she" shall be code-named "Jen". The antecedent of the word "he" shall be code-named "Moe". OK Jen just had to get Jen's(?)Yes own revenge for what Moe did to Jen(?).Yes | ||
| Tycoon (Tycoon)
New member Username: Tycoon Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2008 |
I can think of two solutions for this. A) SHE is a cat who is stalking and about to kill a rat who ate her food. So she is concentrating hard on the rat's movement. B) A girl killing a snake who has just bitten her. Concentration so as to ensure that the snake is killed completely. | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 282 Registered: 11-2008 |
I can think of two solutions for this. A) SHE is a cat who is stalking and about to kill a rat who ate her food. So she is concentrating hard on the rat's movement. I am afraid that neither this... B) A girl killing a snake who has just bitten her. Concentration so as to ensure that the snake is killed completely. ...nor this solution are correct. | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1627 Registered: 12-2004 |
There are two different SHEs here... | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 284 Registered: 11-2008 |
There are two different SHEs here... That's correct. | ||
| Oisin (Oisin)
New member Username: Oisin Post Number: 165 Registered: 12-2008 |
Are these two events linked? Do either of the people in the first event know either of the people in the second event? Did the female agent in the second event (she2; and I shall use the same convention to refer to the other agents) ever get her revenge? You said earlier that "he attacked her": did he1 attack her1? Did he2 attack her2? Is he1 related to he2? or she2? Is she1 related to she2? or he2? The means by which she1 is killing he1: stabbing? asphyxiation? poison? crushing? gunshot? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 397 Registered: 11-2008 |
Are these two events linked? Yes Do either of the people in the first event know either of the people in the second event? No Did the female agent in the second event (she2; and I shall use the same convention to refer to the other agents) ever get her revenge? in a way, yes You said earlier that "he attacked her": did he1 attack her1? No Did he2 attack her2? Yes Is he1 related to he2? Noish or she2? No Is she1 related to she2? Noishor he2? No The means by which she1 is killing he1: stabbing? asphyxiation? poison? crushing? gunshot? None of these | ||
| Oisin (Oisin)
New member Username: Oisin Post Number: 170 Registered: 12-2008 |
Did event 1 precede event 2? or vice versa? or did they happen at about the same time? Was there any causal link between the events? The method of killing in 1: explosion? burning? electrocution? beating? pushing off a height? using a car? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 399 Registered: 11-2008 |
Did event 1 precede event 2? Yope or vice versa? Yes or did they happen at about the same time? No Was there any causal link between the events? Yesish The method of killing in 1: explosion? burning? electrocution? beating? pushing off a height? using a car? None of these | ||
| Oisin (Oisin)
New member Username: Oisin Post Number: 172 Registered: 12-2008 |
Hmm - The motive for killing in the first event - revenge? political? financial? a crime of passion? curiosity? or is this a motiveless crime? Does she realise that she is killing him? (Oh - and a recheck, as the question was asked before we established there were two different hes and shes - are all four characters H? A? ) | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 401 Registered: 11-2008 |
Hmm - The motive for killing in the first event - revenge? political? This-ish financial? a crime of passion? curiosity? or is this a motiveless crime? Does she realise that she is killing him? Yope (Oh - and a recheck, as the question was asked before we established there were two different hes and shes - are all four characters H? A? Yes ) | ||
| Smartyllama (Smartyllama)
New member Username: Smartyllama Post Number: 20 Registered: 1-2009 |
Just a shot in the dark - any sex change operations involved? (i.e. did Ms. Q used to be male or Larry female) If so, do either the shes or the hes refer to previous genders of Ms. Q and/or Larry? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 405 Registered: 11-2008 |
Just a shot in the dark - any sex change operations involved? (i.e. did Ms. Q used to be male or Larry female) If so, do either the shes or the hes refer to previous genders of Ms. Q and/or Larry? Very interesting idea, but no. | ||
| Howardwoman (Howardwoman)
New member Username: Howardwoman Post Number: 210 Registered: 1-2008 |
Is the French Revolution relevant? Guillotines? Marie Antoinette? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 407 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is the French Revolution relevant? Guillotines? Marie Antoinette? Neither | ||
| Thebrownlynx (Thebrownlynx)
New member Username: Thebrownlynx Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2009 |
The "he" that attacked her was the one being killed? Did he actually die? "she´s" revenge consisted in letting him die without saving him? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 415 Registered: 11-2008 |
The "he" that attacked her was the one being killed? No - as explained above Did he actually die? No. Good question. "she´s" revenge consisted in letting him die without saving him? No | ||
| Thebrownlynx (Thebrownlynx)
New member Username: Thebrownlynx Post Number: 9 Registered: 2-2009 |
Larry didn´t die because: someone saved him? Moe? Jen? Another person? he escaped himself the killing? Mrs. Q realized that she was killing him and stop in time? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 417 Registered: 11-2008 |
Post Number: 9 Larry didn´t die because: someone saved him? Moe? Jen? Another person? he escaped himself the killing? Mrs. Q realized that she was killing him and stop in time? None of these | ||
| Thebrownlynx (Thebrownlynx)
New member Username: Thebrownlynx Post Number: 14 Registered: 2-2009 |
How much time passed between the events? 1 hour or less? between one hour and one day? between one day and one week? between one week and one month? between one month and one year? more than one year? Larry got hurt physically? Larry got its reputation damaged? is Larry a relative of Moe? Jen? Mrs. Q? is Moe a relative of Larry? Jen? Mrs. Q? is Jen a relative of Moe? Larry? Mrs. Q? is Mrs. Q. a relative of Moe? Jen? Larry? Any romantic affaires involved? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 429 Registered: 11-2008 |
How much time passed between the events? 1 hour or less? between one hour and one day? between one day and one week? between one week and one month? between one month and one year? Approximately one year more than one year? Larry got hurt physically? Noish Larry got its reputation damaged? No is Larry a relative of Moe? Jen? Mrs. Q? Neither is Moe a relative of Larry? Jen? Mrs. Q? No is Jen a relative of Moe? Larry? Mrs. Q? No is Mrs. Q. a relative of Moe? Jen? Larry? No Any romantic affaires involved? Yesish | ||
| Thebrownlynx (Thebrownlynx)
New member Username: Thebrownlynx Post Number: 16 Registered: 2-2009 |
Larry got hurt psychologically? had Larry an affaire with Moe? Jen? Mrs. Q? had Moe an affair with Larry? Jen? Mrs. Q? had Jen an affair with Moe? Larry? Mrs. Q? had Mrs. Q. an affair with Moe? Jen? Larry? Are Larry, Moe, Jen and Mrs. Q actually four different people? Anyone else involved? Burning at the stake involved? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 433 Registered: 11-2008 |
Larry got hurt psychologically? No had Larry an affaire with Moe? Jen? Mrs. Q? Neither had Moe an affair with Larry? Jen? Yesish Mrs. Q? had Jen an affair with Moe? Yesish Larry? Mrs. Q? had Mrs. Q. an affair with Moe? Jen? Larry? Neither Are Larry, Moe, Jen and Mrs. Q actually four different people? Yes Anyone else involved? Noish Burning at the stake involved? No | ||
| Thebrownlynx (Thebrownlynx)
New member Username: Thebrownlynx Post Number: 21 Registered: 2-2009 |
Was there a love triangle between Jen, Moe and somebody else? Were Jen, Moe, Larry or Mrs. Q a member of royalty? were any of them the heir of a kingdom? Did they have the same nationality? is nationality relevant? Were Mrs. Q in some kind of spell or trance when she was killing Larry? The motive of Jen´s revenge was that Moe attempted to kill her or hurt her? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 435 Registered: 11-2008 |
Was there a love triangle between Jen, Moe and somebody else? No Were Jen, Moe, Larry or Mrs. Q a member of royalty? No were any of them the heir of a kingdom? No Did they have the same nationality? Yes is nationality relevant? slightly Were Mrs. Q in some kind of spell or trance when she was killing Larry? No The motive of Jen´s revenge was that Moe attempted to kill her No or hurt her? No-ish | ||
| D_gordon (D_gordon)
New member Username: D_gordon Post Number: 388 Registered: 11-2008 |
Was the motive of Jen's revenge that Moe stole something from her? Was in a relationship with her and committed adultery? Was in a relationship and committed adultery with her? Otherwise committed fraud with her as the victim? Was Mrs. Q killing Larry in the sense of murder? Or, perhaps, "killing" him at a game? Is gambling relevant? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 439 Registered: 11-2008 |
Was the motive of Jen's revenge that Moe stole something from her? No Was in a relationship with her and committed adultery? No Was in a relationship No and committed adultery with her? yes; explore Otherwise committed fraud with her as the victim? Noish Was Mrs. Q killing Larry in the sense of murder? Noish to yope Or, perhaps, "killing" him at a game? No Is gambling relevant?No | ||
| Noobdogg (Noobdogg)
Moderator Username: Noobdogg Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2009 |
This sounds so much like the Thomas Overbury murder, but this isn't actually a murder is it? | ||
| Kalira (Kalira)
New member Username: Kalira Post Number: 64 Registered: 2-2009 |
Was Mrs. Q trying to end Larry's life? and she failed to do so? Just for clarification, she was trying to kill him and not some sort of avatar of his, right? Did the intervention that stopped him from dying happen while Mrs. Q was still in the process of trying to kill him? while she was still in the location with him but after she finished whatever she was doing that she thought would kill him? after she left? Did this intervention come in the form of a person? an animal? a force of nature? a machine? So Moe was not in a relationship with anyone but he committed adultery with Jen? Was she in a relationship with someone? Did this someone break off their relationship when he? she? discovered that Jen had committed adultery? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 440 Registered: 11-2008 |
This sounds so much like the Thomas Overbury murder this is a very interesting story, but it is not the subject of our puzzle, but this isn't actually a murder is it? No, you're right - it isn't Was Mrs. Q trying to end Larry's life? Yope and she failed to do so? Yope Just for clarification, she was trying to kill him and not some sort of avatar of his, right? Just the opposite - the avatar is closest to what it really was Did the intervention that stopped him from dying happen while Mrs. Q was still in the process of trying to kill him? FA, see above while she was still in the location with him but after she finished whatever she was doing that she thought would kill him? FA, see above after she left? FA, see above Did this intervention come in the form of a person? an animal? a force of nature? a machine? FA, see above So Moe was not in a relationship with anyone but he committed adultery with Jen? He was married (sorry for the possible confusion in the previous answer), but I would not call it a "love triangle" Was she in a relationship with someone? No Did this someone break off their relationship when he? she? discovered that Jen had committed adultery? not really | ||
| Noobdogg (Noobdogg)
Moderator Username: Noobdogg Post Number: 22 Registered: 3-2009 |
A voodoo doll? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 441 Registered: 11-2008 |
A voodoo doll? no | ||
| Kalira (Kalira)
New member Username: Kalira Post Number: 65 Registered: 2-2009 |
AHA! I thought I was getting shades of that... Was Mrs Q attempting to deface or destroy a painting of Larry? Or did she try to "kill" his political career? I assume we have to figure out who each of the people involved actually were? Are any of them famous? Are any of them politicians? Was Mrs Q in her country of origin when the event in which she is involved took place? Larry? Jen? Moe? Are the four people involved in this puzzle from England? Ireland? Scotland? Wales? France? Spain? Portugal? Germany? Austria? Italy? Switzerland? Belgium? Denmark? Sweden? Norway? Finland? Greece? one of the European countries I have not listed? So Moe was married and committed adultery with Jen? And he also attacked her? Did her revenge consist of attacking him physically? Did she try to harm his political career? Did she make it so that Moe's wife found out about the affair? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 442 Registered: 11-2008 |
AHA! I thought I was getting shades of that... Was Mrs Q attempting to deface or destroy a painting of Larry? Uhh, this one is difficult... Let us say Yope, but you are very close and this track is definitely worth exploring Or did she try to "kill" his political career? No I assume we have to figure out who each of the people involved actually were? this might help Are any of them famous? You will probably have heard about Mrs Q and Larry; it is possible but not very likely you have heard about Jen, pretty unlikely yet not impossible you have heard about Moe Are any of them politicians? No Was Mrs Q in her country of origin when the event in which she is involved took place? difficult to answer, and possible FA Larry? Same as Mrs Q Jen? Yes Moe? Yes Are the four people involved in this puzzle from England? Ireland? Scotland? Wales? France? Spain? Portugal? Germany? Austria? Italy? Yes, for two of them Switzerland? Belgium? Denmark? Sweden? Norway? Finland? Greece? one of the European countries I have not listed? So Moe was married and committed adultery with Jen? Yes And he also attacked her? Yesish Did her revenge consist of attacking him physically? No Did she try to harm his political career? No Did she make it so that Moe's wife found out about the affair? She probably eventually did find out but it was not Jen's first intention | ||
| Kalira (Kalira)
New member Username: Kalira Post Number: 69 Registered: 2-2009 |
I thought you said earlier they were the same nationality (your post 435)? Only two of them are the same nationality? Is Jen from Italy? Moe? Mrs Q? Larry? Did Mrs Q deface or destroy a statue of Larry? or an effigy? a bust? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 870 Registered: 5-2003 |
Is Mrs Q trying to end Larry's social life? Something physical associated with Larry? Some image of Larry? A photograph? Mural? If, so, would it be relevant to figure out what sort of image? What medium the image is painted in (oils, watercolor, etc)? Are there more than two people in the image? Larry and someone else relevant? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 1280 Registered: 11-2008 |
Sorry for having this one so long in the Limbo. I am now going to do a short recap, correct some bloopers, and answer your questions. The recap goes first: The puzzle statement, completed with what you have already established, goes like this: There was an expression of rapt concentration on Mrs Q's face as she was killing Larry. Jen just had to get her own revenge for what Moe did to her (=Jen). We have established that this is a true story which happened in Italy in the 17th century. Moe and Jen had yesishly an affair, Moe committed adultery with Jen as he was married, and what he did to her would be illegal in most countries. The BLOOPER relates to the fact they all were of the same nationality. They weren't; Jen and Moe were Italians, the rest is to be established. Sorry for confusing you. And now, back to your questions. I thought you said earlier they were the same nationality (your post 435)?Sorry, they weren't, see the blooper above Only two of them are the same nationality? Yes Is Jen from Italy? Yes Moe? Yes Mrs Q? Larry? No to both s Mrs Q trying to end Larry's social life? I suppose so, given your social life ends when your real one does Something physical associated with Larry? Yes Some image of Larry? This is definitely OTRT A photograph? Mural? Neither If, so, would it be relevant to figure out what sort of image? Definitely so What medium the image is painted in (oils, watercolor, etc)?This would help, too Are there more than two people in the image? Yes Larry and someone else relevant? Yes | ||
| Quovynyte (Quovynyte)
New member Username: Quovynyte Post Number: 233 Registered: 6-2009 |
Do all four people know each other? Was Moe married to Larry? Mrs Q? Someone else? Are Larry and Moe related by family? Are they the same person? Are there just exactly four people in this puzzle? Are Mrs Q's and Larry's nationality relevant? American? European? Antarctican? Asian? African? Austrailian? Was Larry killed? If so, by a bullet? A blade? Drowning? Burning? Choking? A fall? Impact? Poison? Drugs? Spontaneous Human Combustion? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 1283 Registered: 11-2008 |
Do all four people know each other? Let us see: Moe knows Jen and vice versa It is known that Mrs Q knew Larry and vice versa. Both Moe and Jen know of the existence of Ms Q and Larry but do not know them personally Neither Mrs Q nor Larry know Moe or Jen. Was Moe married to Larry? No, given they are both males Mrs Q? No Someone else? Yes; the identity of Moe's wife is not relevant for the puzzle, nor is she one of the four dramatis personae; the only important thing about her is that she exists. Are Larry and Moe related by family? No Are they the same person? No Are there just exactly four people in this puzzle? There are four protagonists, that's right; there is another group which is marginally relevant, too Are Mrs Q's and Larry's nationality relevant? Yes American? European? Antarctican? Asian? This African? Austrailian? Was Larry killed? I previously answered No; on second thought, I'd rather make it Yope If so, by a bullet? A blade? This Drowning? Burning? Choking? A fall? Impact? Poison? Drugs? Spontaneous Human Combustion? No to the rest | ||
| Quovynyte (Quovynyte)
New member Username: Quovynyte Post Number: 235 Registered: 6-2009 |
Is the nationality... Afghanistan? Armenia? Azerbaijan? Bangladesh? Bhutan? Brunei? Cambodia? China? Cyprus? Georgia? India? Indonesia? Japan? Kazakhstan? Kyrgyzstan? Laos? Malaysia? Maldives? Mongolia? Myanmar? Nepal? North Korea? Pakistan? Philippines? Russia? Singapore? South Korea? Sri Lanka? Taiwan? Tajikistan? Thailand? Turkey? Turkmenistan? Uzbekistan? Vietnam ? Or in the Middle East? Bahrain? Iran? Iraq? Israel? Jordan? Kuwait? Lebanon? Oman? Qatar? Saudi Arabia? Syria? United Arab Emirates? Yemen? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 1285 Registered: 11-2008 |
Iraq is the closest for Larry; for Mrs. Q it is porbably either Israel or Egypt | ||
| Tommyp (Tommyp)
New member Username: Tommyp Post Number: 391 Registered: 3-2004 |
"Iraq is the closest" - because you don't know? because it's not known exactly where he was from? because current Iraq isn't the same as then, borders have changed compared to the Mamluk ruled area from then? "Larry killed = Yope" - because he got a wound he should normally survive from? but eventually died from a complication? Any famous objects involved? like jewels? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 1288 Registered: 11-2008 |
Iraq is the closest" - because you don't know? because it's not known exactly where he was from? because current Iraq isn't the same as then This is closest, borders have changed compared to the Mamluk ruled area from then? "Larry killed = Yope" - because he got a wound he should normally survive from? but eventually died from a complication? Neither Any famous objects involved? Yes, I'd say moderately famous like jewels? but not this | ||
| Tommyp (Tommyp)
New member Username: Tommyp Post Number: 394 Registered: 3-2004 |
Is it the blade that is "famous"? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 1290 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is it the blade that is "famous"? No; however, there is a tangible object involved which is, as I said, moderately famous | ||
| Tommyp (Tommyp)
New member Username: Tommyp Post Number: 398 Registered: 3-2004 |
Were all four people in the same place? same city? same country? relevant which place? which country? | ||
| Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
New member Username: Probably_monty_hall Post Number: 18 Registered: 10-2009 |
Have we established that all 4 of these people were living, breathing humans? Are some of them works of art/fiction? Are Mrs. Q and Larry actually characters created by Jen? In a book? Play? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 1291 Registered: 11-2008 |
Were all four people in the same place? Yope same city? Yope same country? Yope relevant which place? which country? We have already established it was Italy Have we established that all 4 of these people were living, breathing humans? No, we haven't; in fact, you're the first person to ask this question, which is a very clever one Are some of them works of art/fiction? Yes, they are. Excellent question! Are Mrs. Q and Larry actually characters created by Jen? Yes with the slightest of -ishes In a book? Play? Neither but OTRT | ||
| Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
New member Username: Probably_monty_hall Post Number: 19 Registered: 10-2009 |
Interesting... I'm going to re-ask the 'painting' question with this new information Are Mrs. Q and Larry depicted in a painting? (or sculpture?) Created by Jen? In the work of art, could it be (accurately) said that Mrs. Q represents Jen and/or that Larry represents Moe? And Mrs. Q is depicted as being in the process of stabbing Larry? Does "the slightest of -ishes" refer to the fact that the people depicted in the work of art are actual historical characters? But that the event being depicted is fictitious? (I have this fun mental picture of the woman from American Gothic stabbing the man with his pitchfork) | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 1296 Registered: 11-2008 |
I'm going to re-ask the 'painting' question with this new information Are Mrs. Q and Larry depicted in a painting? Yes! (or sculpture?) Created by Jen? Exactly so. Good work! In the work of art, could it be (accurately) said that Mrs. Q represents Jen and/or that Larry represents Moe? Do you mean whether Mrs Q is an exact portrait of Jen and Larry is an exact portrait of Moe? If so, the answer is No And Mrs. Q is depicted as being in the process Yes of stabbing Not accurate but OTRT Larry? Does "the slightest of -ishes" refer to the fact that the people depicted in the work of art are actual historical characters? You are definitely OTRT; to be absolutely honest, I have to answer Yesish, but there are people who would probably give a straight Yes But that the event being depicted is fictitious? Again, from my point of view, both the people and the event are fictitious, but I am sure some people would say they were real (I have this fun mental picture of the woman from American Gothic stabbing the man with his pitchfork) Interesting. I don't know this picture. Just out of macabre curiosity, could you post a link? And, btw, very much OTRT again. | ||
| Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
New member Username: Probably_monty_hall Post Number: 20 Registered: 10-2009 |
Hang on, given that Mrs. Q and Larry are from Iraq(ish), is the work of art Biblical in nature? As in, do they represent Biblical characters? Does the event portray a Biblical event? Would we likely be familiar with the work of art? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 1298 Registered: 11-2008 |
Hang on, given that Mrs. Q and Larry are from Iraq(ish), is the work of art Biblical in nature? Bingo! As in, do they represent Biblical characters? Yes indeed! Does the event portray a Biblical event? Aye, it does Would we likely be familiar with the work of art? I do not know whether you are likely to be familiar with this specific work of art, but it is fairly likely you have seen another work of art depicting the same scene. Must confess I am impressed, Monty ... | ||
| Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
New member Username: Probably_monty_hall Post Number: 21 Registered: 10-2009 |
Re: 'Mrs. Q as Jen and Larry as Moe'... I was asking if Jen had intended the resemblance in a figurative/artistic sense. That is, that one might interpret Mrs. Q's actions against Larry as Jen's way of getting revenge on Moe. The painting I described at the end of my post (with the pitchfork murder) doesn't actually exist, but a simple Google image search for American Gothic will lead to my "source material" | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 1299 Registered: 11-2008 |
Re: 'Mrs. Q as Jen and Larry as Moe'... I was asking if Jen had intended the resemblance in a figurative/artistic sense. That is, that one might interpret Mrs. Q's actions against Larry as Jen's way of getting revenge on Moe. I see. In this case, it's a straight Yes. | ||
| Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
New member Username: Probably_monty_hall Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2009 |
Hmmm... there aren't that many women in the Bible... Adam and Eve? Jesus and Mary (either of them)? Ooh! Is it a painting of Sampson and Delilah and the haircut heard 'round the world? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 1300 Registered: 11-2008 |
Hmmm... there aren't that many women in the Bible... you sure?? ;-)) Adam and Eve? Jesus and Mary (either of them)? Ooh! Is it a painting of Sampson and Delilah and the haircut heard 'round the world? Neither of the above. HINT: Look again at the puzzle statement. | ||
| Quovynyte (Quovynyte)
New member Username: Quovynyte Post Number: 299 Registered: 6-2009 |
Some women: Sarah? Rebecca? Rachel? Leah? Serah? Miriam? Deborah? Ruth? Batsheva? Esther? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 1306 Registered: 11-2008 |
Some women: Sarah? Rebecca? Rachel? Leah? Serah? Miriam? Deborah? Ruth? Batsheva? Esther? Neither but keep trying ;-)) | ||
| Quovynyte (Quovynyte)
New member Username: Quovynyte Post Number: 301 Registered: 6-2009 |
Abigail? Abihail? Abijah? Abishag? Abital? Achsah? Ada? Adah? Ahinoam? Ahlai? Aholah? Aholiamah? Aholibah? Aholibamah? Anammelech? Anna? Apphia? Asenath? Asherah? Ashtoreth? Atarah? Athaliah? Azubah? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 1308 Registered: 11-2008 |
Abigail? Abihail? Abijah? Abishag? Abital? Achsah? Ada? Adah? Ahinoam? Ahlai? Aholah? Aholiamah? Aholibah? Aholibamah? Anammelech? Anna? Apphia? Asenath? Asherah? Ashtoreth? Atarah? Athaliah? Azubah? Neither, sorry. Not that I want to influence you in the least (I even admire your systematic approach), but this could take a good deal of time. If I were you, I'd have another look at the puzzle statement - it could narrow down the choice of names | ||
| Quovynyte (Quovynyte)
New member Username: Quovynyte Post Number: 305 Registered: 6-2009 |
But I don't know any biblical women murderers. Jezebel? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 1310 Registered: 11-2008 |
But I don't know any biblical women murderers. I am sorry I can't help you in this. But you have established that it was a biblical female murderer, that's already something. You do not have to know her exact identity to establish what happened. Jezebel? No | ||
| Martinfg (Martinfg)
New member Username: Martinfg Post Number: 847 Registered: 8-2005 |
eve? | ||
| Quovynyte (Quovynyte)
New member Username: Quovynyte Post Number: 309 Registered: 6-2009 |
It was a painting that Jen painted, yes? Type of painting relevant? (poster, acrylic, oil etc. ) Is this painting famous? Is Jen famous? Is she a famous painter? Is Moe famous? Is he a famous painter? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 1312 Registered: 11-2008 |
eve? Did Eve kill anyone? It was a painting that Jen painted, yes? Correct Type of painting relevant? (poster, acrylic, oil etc. ) It is oil on canvas, but it is not relevant at all Is this painting famous? It is definitely not not one of the most famous paintings in the world; I'd say moderately famous Is Jen famous? Moderately; it is highly probable you've never heard of her Is she a famous painter? Moderately, but definitely more so than Moe Is Moe famous? Not really Is he a famous painter? He is mentioned eg in wikipedia, but was definitely less famous than Jen | ||
| Quovynyte (Quovynyte)
New member Username: Quovynyte Post Number: 318 Registered: 6-2009 |
Is the painting of Mrs Q killing Larry? So both of them are biblical characters? Are they from the Old Testament? Did Moe steal from Jen? Steal an idea? Was Jen injured? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 1320 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is the painting of Mrs Q killing Larry? Yes So both of them are biblical characters? Yes Are they from the Old Testament? Yes Did Moe steal from Jen? No Steal an idea? No Was Jen injured? Can't exclude that | ||
| Quovynyte (Quovynyte)
New member Username: Quovynyte Post Number: 323 Registered: 6-2009 |
Are the famous biblical characters? Are they moderately famous? Not so famous at all? Are any of them from a royal family? Are they blood related? Husband and wife? Did Mrs Q have a good reason to be killing Larry? Was she crazy? Angry? Disappointed? Scared? Did Jen want to paint this picture? | ||
| Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
New member Username: Probably_monty_hall Post Number: 23 Registered: 10-2009 |
I really thought I had it with the Samson & Delilah idea I'm going to do a recap of what we know about the painting to make sure we're all on the same page... -Larry and Mrs. Q are both H&A -Mrs. Q's motive for killing was political-ish -Whether the event was an actual murder is "Noish to Yope" -Mrs. Q only "yope" realized she was killing Larry, and she was "yope"ishly trying to end his life -Larry was "Yope"ishly killed. The instrument of killing was a blade. -The suggestion that it was an image of Larry that was being killed was OTRT. Does this refer (1)merely to the fact that the event is depicted in a painting, or (2) does the painting itself depict Mrs. Q "killing" a nonliving representation of Larry (statue, picture, legal document(s))? -More than 2 people are depicted in the painting Is each of the above statements correct? If so this would seem to indicate that the event was a non-literal killing. Is this correct? Going back to the puzzle statement, can it be said that the painting (and the event it portrays) involves a revenge killing? Which of the following definitions of 'rapt' is most appropriate to this puzzle? 1 : lifted up and carried away 2 : transported with emotion : enraptured 3 : wholly absorbed : engrossed Does the event being depicted involve: -human sacrifice? -the killing of the firstborn son? -an event that takes place in the first 5 books of the OT? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 995 Registered: 7-2009 |
Are the yopes in all of the questions about the killing because it was a non-literal killing (as monty suggested above)? Or was it because the killing occurred in the Bible? If one accepts every word in the Bible as truth, do the any of the yope, noish, yesish answers change? If so, which ones? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 1321 Registered: 11-2008 |
Are the famous biblical characters? I'd say quite famous Are they moderately famous? Not so famous at all? Difficult to establish to what degree their are famous. I would say that a person with a moderate knowledge of the Bible would definitely have heard about them. Are any of them from a royal family? AFAIK, no Are they blood related? No Husband and wife? No Did Mrs Q have a good reason to be killing Larry? Yes (although she was not his wife ;-)) Was she crazy? No Angry? Possibly Disappointed? No Scared? Probably but irr Did Jen want to paint this picture? Yes I'm going to do a recap of what we know about the painting to make sure we're all on the same page... OK. Fire away. -Larry and Mrs. Q are both H&A Yes -Mrs. Q's motive for killing was political-ish Yes -Whether the event was an actual murder is "Noish to Yope" Yes, I said this; see below -Mrs. Q only "yope" realized she was killing Larry, and she was "yope"ishly trying to end his life See below for the explanation; I consider it to be the closest answer given both Ms Q and Larry are just painted figures and have no feelings at all -Larry was "Yope"ishly killed. The instrument of killing was a blade. Yes -The suggestion that it was an image of Larry that was being killed was OTRT. Exactly so. Does this refer (1)merely to the fact that the event is depicted in a painting This. To be absolutely clear, all the "noish to yope" stuff was because there was no real blood shed. Yet the painting depicts Ms Q killing Larry, Ms Q intends to kill him and, as a result, Larry is as dead as a doornail. , or (2) does the painting itself depict Mrs. Q "killing" a nonliving representation of Larry (statue, picture, legal document(s))? No, the picture represents a real Ms Q actually killing a real Larry -More than 2 people are depicted in the painting Yes, but the third person is fairly irrelevant Is each of the above statements correct? See the answers above If so this would seem to indicate that the event was a non-literal killing. Is this correct? Yes; as I said, no real person was killed in the puzzle; all the yopish- yesish-noish answers referred merely to the fact that it was a depicted not real killing Going back to the puzzle statement, can it be said that the painting (and the event it portrays) involves a revenge killing? No Which of the following definitions of 'rapt' is most appropriate to this puzzle? 1 : lifted up and carried away 2 : transported with emotion : enraptured 3 : wholly absorbed This: engrossed And this; fully concentrated on what she was doing Does the event being depicted involve: -human sacrifice? No -the killing of the firstborn son? No -an event that takes place in the first 5 books of the OT? Actually, it is in one of the deuterocanonical books Are the yopes in all of the questions about the killing because it was a non-literal killing (as monty suggested above)? Yes, as I explained above, the killing was just a depicted scene, not a real one Or was it because the killing occurred in the Bible? If one accepts every word in the Bible as truth, do the any of the yope, noish, yesish answers change? If so, which ones? I think nothing would change in such a case; there is nothing more to it than it was just a painting | ||
| Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
New member Username: Probably_monty_hall Post Number: 24 Registered: 10-2009 |
Actually, it is in one of the deuterocanonical books As someone who was raised protestant, this is going to make things trickier. Would you prefer that we not consult Google/Wikipedia for help identifying the story and characters? Just to make sure, the killing depicted in the painting was an event described in the Bible/Apocrypha, right? That is, if one were to turn to the correct page(s), would one read a story about a woman killing a man using a blade? The blade: sword? knife? dagger? Would a better line of questioning at this point be to explore what Moe did to Jen and then why Jen chose to depict this event as revenge? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 1324 Registered: 11-2008 |
Actually, it is in one of the deuterocanonical books As someone who was raised protestant, this is going to make things trickier. That's true. It would be equally tricky if you were a Jew :-)) Would you prefer that we not consult Google/Wikipedia for help identifying the story and characters? No - please feel free to google as much as you please. Just to make sure, the killing depicted in the painting was an event described in the Bible/Apocrypha, right? Yes; I am not so sure about the Apocrypha as the Deuterocanonical books and the Apocrypha do not exactly overlap That is, if one were to turn to the correct page(s), would one read a story about a woman killing a man using a blade? Yes; as a matter of fact, it specifies the exact type of the weapon, which is fairly irrelevant for this puzzle The blade: sword? This is closest knife? dagger? Would a better line of questioning at this point be to explore what Moe did to Jen and then why Jen chose to depict this event as revenge? I reckon so | ||
| Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
New member Username: Probably_monty_hall Post Number: 25 Registered: 10-2009 |
Judith and Holofernes? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 1326 Registered: 11-2008 |
Judith and Holofernes? Yes! | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 999 Registered: 7-2009 |
According to wikipedia, Judith "used her charms" to get into Holofernes' tent, got him drunk, and then cut off his head. Do we need to know anything else about the story? Had Moe done something similar to Jen (without beheading her, of course)? Did he seduce her and get her drunk? | ||
| Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
New member Username: Probably_monty_hall Post Number: 26 Registered: 10-2009 |
Ok, the easiest explanation would be that Moe called off/ended his affair with Jen. Jen, the jilted lover, wanted revenge so she turned to her art as an outlet. Perhaps she didn't want to come across as a would-be murderer or didn't want to "step out of line" socially as a 16th century woman. This meant that she would need to "hide" her message in a well-known Biblical story. Given that there are few female murderers in the Bible (as I and the other puzzlers can painfully attest), she chose the story of Judith. Are aspects of the above correct? Something tells me this isn't the whole story though. Is that right? Is there a more direct reason why Jen chose the story of Judith? Is Moe's profession relevant? Painter? Military? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 1327 Registered: 11-2008 |
According to wikipedia, Judith "used her charms" to get into Holofernes' tent, got him drunk, and then cut off his head. Correct Do we need to know anything else about the story? Not really Had Moe done something similar to Jen (without beheading her, of course)? Did he seduce her Not exactly but very much OTRT and get her drunk? Irr Ok, the easiest explanation would be that Moe called off/ended his affair with Jen This is correct but it is not the whole story. Jen, the jilted lover, wanted revenge so she turned to her art as an outlet Again - correct but there is a little more to it. Perhaps she didn't want to come across as a would-be murderer or didn't want to "step out of line" socially as a 16th century woman This is very likely - good thinking!. This meant that she would need to "hide" her message in a well-known Biblical story. I'd interpret it exactly in the same way as you did Given that there are few female murderers in the Bible (as I and the other puzzlers can painfully attest) ;-)), she chose the story of Judith. This is very likely, too. Are aspects of the above correct? Yes Something tells me this isn't the whole story though. Is that right? Absolutely Is there a more direct reason why Jen chose the story of Judith? I'd say so Is Moe's profession relevant? Yes Painter? Yes Military? Now, you are very close to the solution; it just needs a few finishing brush strokes :-)) | ||
| Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
New member Username: Probably_monty_hall Post Number: 27 Registered: 10-2009 |
What Moe did was illegal in most countries... Was the relationship non-consensual? Rape? Did it start as consensual but turned non-consensual? Had Moe created a painting before that depicted either of the characters in Jen's painting? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 1330 Registered: 11-2008 |
What Moe did was illegal in most countries... Was the relationship non-consensual? Rape? Yes Did it start as consensual but turned non-consensual? The other way round Had Moe created a painting before that depicted either of the characters in Jen's painting? No I think you've established enough for me to publish a ******************SPOILER*************** (I am mostly quoting Wikipedia here as it contained the most concise information. So here we go: “Jen“ in our puzzle is actually Artemisia Gentileschi (1593–ca. 1656), an Italian Early Baroque painter, who is today considered one of the most accomplished painters in the generation influenced by Caravaggio. In an era when women painters were not easily accepted by the artistic community, she was the first female painter to become a member of the Accademia di Arte del Disegno in Florence. She was one of the first female artists to paint historical and religious paintings, at a time when such heroic themes were considered beyond a woman's reach. Artemisia Gentileschi was born in Rome a daughter of a painter Orazio Gentileschi. Artemisia was introduced to painting in her father's workshop, showing much more talent than her brothers, who worked alongside her. She learned drawing, how to mix color and how to paint. Since her father's style took inspiration from Caravaggio during that period, her style was just as heavily influenced in turn. But her approach to subject matter was different from her father's, as her paintings are highly naturalistic, where Orazio's are idealized. In 1612, despite her early talent, Artemisia was denied access to the all-male professional academies for art. At the time, her father was working with a painter, a certain Agostino Tassi (our “Moe“), whom he hired to tutor his daughter privately. During this tutelage, Tassi raped Artemisia. Another man, Cosimo Quorlis had helped Tassi with the rape. After the initial rape, Artemisia continued to have sexual relations with Tassi, with the expectation that they were going to be married. However, Tassi reneged on his promise to marry Artemisia after he heard the rumor that she was having an affair with another man; moreover, he was already married. Quorlis had threatened that if he could not have her, he would publicly humiliate her. Orazio pressed charges against Tassi only after he learned that Artemisia and Tassi were not going to be married. Orazio also claimed that Tassi stole a painting of Judith from the Gentileschi household. The major issue of this trial was the fact that Tassi had deflowered Artemisia. If Artemisia had not been a virgin before Tassi raped her, the Gentileschis would not be able to press charges. In the ensuing 7-month trial, it was discovered that Tassi had planned to murder his wife, had enjoined in adultery with his sister-in-law and planned to steal some of Orazio’s paintings. During the trial Artemisia was given a gynecological examination and was tortured using a device made of thongs wrapped around the fingers and tightened by degrees. Both procedures were used to corroborate the truth of her allegation, the torture device used due to the belief that if a person can tell the same story under torture as without it, the story must be true. At the end of the trial Tassi was imprisoned for one year. The trial has subsequently influenced the feminist view of Artemisia Gentileschi during the late 20th century. Later in her life, Artemisia painted “Judith (our “Mrs. Q“) beheading Holofernes (our “Larry“) displayed in the Capodimonte Museum of Naples, which is impressive for the violence portrayed. The violence is thus sometimes seen as a kind of therapeutic revenge substitute. You can look for yourself: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/GENTILESCHI_Judith.jpg Thank you all for participating, and especially Probably_monty_hall for the finishing touch. | ||
| Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
New member Username: Probably_monty_hall Post Number: 28 Registered: 10-2009 |
Fascinating puzzle, Alhucema, and thanks for sharing! Anyone around me over the past couple of days would have described the expression on my face as one of "rapt concentration" as I wrestled with this puzzle. :-) | ||
| Quovynyte (Quovynyte)
New member Username: Quovynyte Post Number: 351 Registered: 6-2009 |
Wow after reading that I've just realized that I'm terrible at lateral puzzles. Great puzzle! (Although all those odd looking names in the solution confused me) | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 1332 Registered: 11-2008 |
Thank you so much. I am genuinely blushing ! ;-)) |
