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Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 6:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For black Americans, the experience of flying is very different from what is was about 50 years ago. How come? (Racial profiling is not involved.)
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 7:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Americans = people living in the USA? In North America? Anywhere in the Americas? Being US citizens? Canadian Citizens? Mexican Citizens? Citizens of any American country?

Flying: In a usual commercial passenger airplane? Another kind of airplane? Any airplane? A helicopter? Another kind of vessel?

Is the difference physical in nature? Or more psychological?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 7:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 7:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Americans = people living in the USA? yesIn North America? Just USA Anywhere in the Americas? see previous answers Being US citizens? ditt ditto Citizens of any American country? ditto

Flying: In a usual commercial passenger airplane? yesAnother kind of airplane? no Any airplane? no
A helicopter? possibly Another kind of vessel? no

Is the difference physical in nature?yes Or more psychological? it's both physical & psychological
Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 7:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is the experience better now? the relevant difference - easier? safer? less expensive?

is segregation of any sort relevant?

clothing worn relevant? cost of flying relevant? alcohol relevant? flight meals relevant?

the reason for the difference - a change in laws? a change in cultural expectations? a change in norms of behaviour? a change in fashion?

was the situation before that their experience was in some way different to white people? and now it is the same? vice versa?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 7:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 7:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
is the experience better now? possibly the relevant difference - easier? no safer? noless expensive? yesish or yope

is segregation of any sort relevant? noish

clothing worn relevant? no cost of flying relevant? yesishalcohol relevant? noflight meals relevant? no

the reason for the difference - a change in laws? yope a change in cultural expectations? yopea change in norms of behaviour? yope a change in fashion? no

was the situation before that their experience was in some way different to white people? yes and now it is the same? yesvice versa? no
Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 9:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did it used to cost more for a black person to fly than a white person for some reason?

or did it just seem to cost more because a black person would earn less than a white person?
is this situation just that, 50 years ago, very few black people would earn enough to be able to afford to fly? whereas, these days, it is much more likely that they can afford to fly? (I'm just guessing here about relative earning power over the years)

is the cost of the ticket relevant? the cost of the fuel? the cost of getting to the airport? other costs associated with flying?

is the pilot relevant? the race profile of pilots today in the US compared with 50 years ago? the stewardesses? the race profile of stewardesses?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 9:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are there some groups of blacks for which the experience would have changed not that much or not at all? Celebrities? Rich people? People of certain professions?

If a black African came to the US and booked a domestic flight - would his experience (the one we look for) be the same as that of a black American? How about a black European?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 11:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 9:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
did it used to cost more for a black person to fly than a white person for some reason? no

or did it just seem to cost more because a black person would earn less than a white person? yes
is this situation just that, 50 years ago, very few black people would earn enough to be able to afford to fly? yes whereas, these days, it is much more likely that they can afford to fly? yes. This is partly because blacks are more prosperous now & partly because air travel is cheaper.Now all you have to do is find out how the experience of flying would have been different 50 years ago for blacks who could afford to fly from how it is now for blacks who can afford to fly (I'm just guessing here about relative earning power over the years)

is the cost of the ticket relevant? you've already figured out the relevant thing about cost: 50 years ago, very few blacks could afford to fly & now many, perhaps most, can the cost of the fuel? see previous answer the cost of getting to the airport? see previous answer other costs associated with flying? see previous answer

is the pilot relevant? nothe race profile of pilots today in the US compared with 50 years ago? no the stewardesses? no the race profile of stewardesses? no
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 9:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Are there some groups of blacks for which the experience would have changed not that much or not at all? no Celebrities? no Rich people? no People of certain professions? no

If a black African came to the US and booked a domestic flight - would his experience (the one we look for) be the same as that of a black American? 50 years ago, it would have been different from the experience of a black American who was flying in America. Now it would not be differentHow about a black European? ditto
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 10:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the experience solely while the plane is actually in flight? If not are any of the following relevant? checking in? baggage reclaim? security checkpoints? Passports or other forms of id?
Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 4:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Once on board the plane... seating arrangements relevant? Where the Air Marshal sat relevant? In-flight service? Leg room? First class seating relevant? (i.e. Now you're likely to see an entire basketball team in first class.)
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 5:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Payment methods relevant? The fact that different classes of seats (e.g. First, Business, Economy) exist? Overbooking? The actions of certain people: other passengers? cabin staff? ground staff? travel agency employees?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 8:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

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Is the experience solely while the plane is actually in flight? noIf not are any of the following relevant? checking in? baggage reclaim? security checkpoints? Passports or other forms of id? Passports & ID are irrel. The others may all be relevant & about equally so
Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Once on board the plane... seating arrangements relevant? noWhere the Air Marshal sat relevant? noIn-flight service? no Leg room? no First class seating relevant? no(i.e. Now you're likely to see an entire basketball team in first class.)
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 5:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Payment methods relevant? no The fact that different classes of seats (e.g. First, Business, Economy) exist? noOverbooking? noThe actions of certain people: other passengers? yescabin staff? no ground staff? notravel agency employees? no
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 10:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Antything to do with Segregation? Where people might sit on a plane? the misconception that the rear of the plane is safer? Anything to do with air safety in general? Chances of dying in a plane crash?
Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 9:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is the difference based around the interaction between white and black passengers? black passengers and white staff? is the difference to do with the expectations of black passengers? of white passengers?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 9:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything to do with the choice of meals or drinks served on the plane?

As an aside...My dad was on an internal flight in the USA once and asked the stewardess for a black coffee only to be told that they didn't serve black coffee they only served coffee with milk or coffee without milk!!
Galois (Galois)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 10:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant that it's now more likely to sit in a row with other black passengers?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 11:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Peter365 (Peter365)
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Antything to do with Segregation? noish Where people might sit on a plane? nothe misconception that the rear of the plane is safer? noAnything to do with air safety in general? no Chances of dying in a plane crash? no
Kdoc (Kdoc)
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is the difference based around the interaction between white and black passengers? no black passengers and white staff? no is the difference to do with the expectations of black passengers? yesof white passengers? no
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Anything to do with the choice of meals or drinks served on the plane? no

As an aside...My dad was on an internal flight in the USA once and asked the stewardess for a black coffee only to be told that they didn't serve black coffee they only served coffee with milk or coffee without milk!!lol!
Galois (Galois)
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Relevant that it's now more likely to sit in a row with other black passengers? no
Noobdogg (Noobdogg)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 5:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So the only relevant issue here is the difference in the financial status of black people 50 years ago and today?

If racial profiling is completely irrelevant, then would it be safe to assume that a white person who could barely afford to fly then would also experience the same difference today if they could afford it comfortably? Or is this specific to black people?

Does this have to do with expectation of service? interaction with the other (white?) passengers?

Would they (the fellow passengers) assume that the black person traveling by airplane must in fact be either very important or extremely well off to be able to afford it, and hence behave differently to them as they would anywhere else?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 7:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it relevant that a black passenger might expect to be the only black passenger on his flight?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 10:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Noobdogg (Noobdogg)
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So the only relevant issue here is the difference in the financial status of black people 50 years ago and today?yesish

If racial profiling is completely irrelevant, then would it be safe to assume that a white person who could barely afford to fly then would also experience the same difference today if they could afford it comfortably? no Or is this specific to black people? I don't know whether it would also apply to some other American moinorities, such as Latinos

Does this have to do with expectation of service? no interaction with the other (white? no) passengers? yes

Would they (the fellow passengers) assume that the black person traveling by airplane must in fact be either very important or extremely well off to be able to afford it, and hence behave differently to them as they would anywhere else? irrel
Markobr (Markobr)
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Is it relevant that a black passenger might expect to be the only black passenger on his flight? no
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Friday, November 06, 2009 - 10:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it just that they are treated as less of an oddity now as compared to 50 years ago?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Is the fact that many carriers are reducing their first-class seating, food, amenities, etc (thus making the seating and flight experience as a whole less stratified) relevant?

Is the average social class of minority flyers relative to whites relevant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Sunday, November 08, 2009 - 11:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Peter365 (Peter365)
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Is it just that they are treated as less of an oddity now as compared to 50 years ago? no
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Is the fact that many carriers are reducing their first-class seating, food, amenities, etc (thus making the seating and flight experience as a whole less stratified) relevant? no

Is the average social class of minority flyers relative to whites relevant? no
Mani (Mani)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 6:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Smoking relevant?
Mani (Mani)
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Probabilities of being seated beside persons from the same minority group relevant? Or policies related to the arrangement of seating people in the plane?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 10:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mani (Mani)
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Smoking relevant? no
Mani (Mani)
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Probabilities of being seated beside persons from the same minority group relevant? no Or policies related to the arrangement of seating people in the plane? no
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 7:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hin t: The black middle class is much bigger than it used to be & flying is much cheaper, relative to income & even in absolute dollars on some routes. So. . . .
Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
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Posted on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 8:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, so it is relevant that many more blacks are able to fly now and the expectations of these black passengers are relevant. Correct?

First class relevant? In-flight snack/meal offerings relevant? Leg room relevant? Racial makeup of the flight crew/airline staff relevant?

Is it simply that blacks can now expect to get seats on a flight that they try to book now, whereas before that might not have happened?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
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Posted on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 8:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Ok, so it is relevant that many more blacks are able to fly now and the expectations of these black passengers are relevant. Correct?

First class relevant? no| In-flight snack/meal offerings relevant? no Leg room relevant? no Racial makeup of the flight crew/airline staff relevant? no

Is it simply that blacks can now expect to get seats on a flight that they try to book now, whereas before that might not have happened? no
Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 7:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

the relevant things we've found so far:

50 yrs ago in the US the flying experience used to be different between blacks and whites, but now it is the same? and this all relates to the absolute and relative wealth of blacks over this period of time?

so now we have to find exactly how their experience was different 50 years ago?
and we know that a black african would not have experienced that same difference 50 years ago as a black american?
and the difference was to do with the expectations of black americans? and with their interactions with other black passengers?

the different thing 50 years ago - that there might only be one black passenger? that black passengers expected to be discriminated against? that black passengers would only speak with other black passengers because of social conventions? that a black passenger might not interact with other black passengers? with white passengers?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 8:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 7:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
the relevant things we've found so far:

50 yrs ago in the US the flying experience used to be different between blacks and whites, but now it is the same? yes, at least with respect to the issue in this puzzle. I can't claim it's the same in all respects, of course.and this all relates to the absolute and relative wealth of blacks over this period of time? yes, although there's one other relevant factor

so now we have to find exactly how their experience was different 50 years ago? yes
and we know that a black african would not have experienced that same difference 50 years ago as a black american? yes
and the difference was to do with the expectations of black americans? probably and with their interactions with other black passengers? yes

the different thing 50 years ago - that there might only be one black passenger?\b} possibly, but that's not it. You're ORT, though} that black passengers expected to be discriminated against? irrelthat black passengers would only speak with other black passengers because of social conventions? nothat a black passenger might not interact with other black passengers? nowith white passengers? no
Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 4:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are any of the following relevant:
Physical characteristics? Family size/makeup? Language/dialect? Religion? Flight origin? Flight destination?

You said that the interactions between black passengers and other (not white) passengers is relevant. Are the relevant interactions among black passengers? Or between black passengers and passengers of other minority groups? Between black passengers who are members of the same family and/or party? Or between black passengers who are traveling in different parties?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 4:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Are any of the following relevant:
Physical characteristics? no Family size/makeup? no Language/dialect? no Religion? noFlight origin? no Flight destination? no

You said that the interactions between black passengers and other (not white) passengers is relevant. Are the relevant interactions among black passengers? yes Or between black passengers and passengers of other minority groups? no Between black passengers who are members of the same family and/or party? no Or between black passengers who are traveling in different parties? yes
Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 1:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the interactions verbal in nature?

Does it have to do with blacks still being surprised to see other blacks on the same flight?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, November 26, 2009 - 9:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
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Registered: 10-2009

Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 1:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Are the interactions verbal in nature?

Does it have to do with blacks still being surprised to see other blacks on the same flight? no
Nimue (Nimue)
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Username: Nimue

Post Number: 4958
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Thursday, November 26, 2009 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 1:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Are the interactions verbal in nature? possibly
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 1878
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Monday, November 30, 2009 - 6:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is communication relevant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Username: Nimue

Post Number: 4969
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 10:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Monday, November 30, 2009 - 6:45 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is communication relevant? yesish
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 682
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 2:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it about seeing another black person? That they know? Don't know? Did most rich black people know (or know about) each other in the 50s?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Username: Nimue

Post Number: 4970
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 6:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Username: Galfisk

Post Number: 682
Registered: 9-2009

Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 2:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is it about seeing another black person? yes That they know? see next answer but oneDon't know? see next answer
Did most rich black people know (or know about) each other in the 50s? yes

****SPOILER ***********
I recently saw a wealthy blsck man quoted as saying that in the 1950's, he rarely saw another black air traveler whom he did not know personally. So few blacks could afford to fly then that they generally all knew one another. The change is mostly because of the growth of the black middle class but also because air travel is much cheaper relative to average income (& sometimes even in absolute terms) than it used to be.This puzzle gave me a pleasant surprise by turning out to be much harder than I expected. Please check out my new one!
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Username: Peter365

Post Number: 2344
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 11:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

'Smacks forehead '

Another case of my overthinking a puzzle. Nice one.
Nimue (Nimue)
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Username: Nimue

Post Number: 4977
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 10:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks! Please direct your lateral skills at my other puzzles!!

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