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Lynne (Lynne)
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Post Number: 4095
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Posted on Monday, November 09, 2009 - 10:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Several people from our village have died recently and their history and memories can be fascinating to read. This is from one lady's memories.

How did the lazy man get out of a duty?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Post Number: 31
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Posted on Monday, November 09, 2009 - 4:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is the man a HAM? (I'm delighted there's a place where such a question is earnest)
is the duty domestic (at home)? municipal (for his "village/town/city")? patriotic (for his country)?
"get out of a duty" - as in avoid, or shirk, responsibility?
if so, are the consequences grave? does someone else have to attend to the duty instead? are they aware someone (our HAM, as I'll assume that's his affiliation) has "gotten out of it?"
(I'm a lazy man; maybe I can pick up on some techniques, here...)
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Monday, November 09, 2009 - 5:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yojimbo - hello

is the man a HAM? (I'm delighted there's a place where such a question is earnest)yes
is the duty domestic (at home)? it would be done at home, yes municipal (for his "village/town/city")? no patriotic (for his country)? no
"get out of a duty" - as in avoid yes or shirk, responsibility?
if so, are the consequences grave? possibly, depends on one's viewpoint does someone else have to attend to the duty instead? no are they aware someone (our HAM, as I'll assume that's his affiliation) has "gotten out of it?" possibly, but not necessarily
(I'm a lazy man; maybe I can pick up on some techniques, here...) interesting, we'll see when the spioler goes up!
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Monday, November 09, 2009 - 10:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would the duty mean to do something? to say something? not to do something? to agree with something?
Would fulfilling the duty have involved physical labor? financial expenses? expenses in time? mental stress?
Would somebody have received a benefit if the man did the duty? if so: his spouse? his child? other relatives?
Did he have the duty at one occasion only? during part of his life? during his whole life?
Did he postpone fulfilling the duty until he died?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Monday, November 09, 2009 - 10:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sundowner - hello

Would the duty mean to do something? yes to say something? not to do something? to agree with something? no to rest
Would fulfilling the duty have involved physical labor? yes financial expenses? expenses in time? yes mental stress? no to others
Would somebody have received a benefit if the man did the duty? if so: his spouse? his child? other relatives? no to all
Did he have the duty at one occasion only? during part of his life? during his whole life? I think for most of his life but I could be mistaken
Did he postpone fulfilling the duty until he died?no
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Monday, November 09, 2009 - 10:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would anybody have received a benefit if the man fulfilled his duty? friends? strangers? the man himself?
was he married? if no: would fulfilling the duty would have involved to marry? to have children?
Did somebody impose the duty on him?
Did the duty arise by law? by inheritance? by birth?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Monday, November 09, 2009 - 10:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sundowner

Would anybody have received a benefit if the man fulfilled his duty? friends? strangers? the man himself? this one
was he married? I'm not sure, I'm guessing not if no: would fulfilling the duty would have involved to marry? to have children? but no to these anyway
Did somebody impose the duty on him? yes
Did the duty arise by law? by inheritance? by birth? none of these
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 2:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Can it be called a daily routine? Like brushing your teeth? A chore? Did he make it appear like he had done his duty? Did he regret it later? Did it have negative consequences for him? For someone else? For an animal or object?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 10:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Galfisk - hello and welcome

Can it be called a daily routine? possibly but maybe not every single day Like brushing your teeth? not really A chore? yes Did he make it appear like he had done his duty? yope Did he regret it later? probably not Did it have negative consequences for him? not known,let's say no For someone else? no For an animal or object? no and no
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 1:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

turn up the electric fire instead of chopping wood?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 8:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he deliberately do the duty poorly so that he wouldn't be asked to do it again?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 8:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yojimbo

turn up the electric fire instead of chopping wood? no

Jenburdo -hi

Did he deliberately do the duty poorly so that he wouldn't be asked to do it again? nope and there's a FA here
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 12:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he not do the duty? have someone else to do it? find an excuse for not doing it? cover it up in some way so that nobody noticed that he did not do it? change something in his life so that the duty would not longer apply to him?
Relevant who imposed the duty on him? His father? mother? a child? a relative? a person he knows? the government? the police? a law court?
Did he have a chance to reject when the duty was imposed on him?
Was he a child at this moment?
Was he elected for some office or position?
Would he have had a chance to get out of the duty in a legal and generally accepted way?
Was the duty related to a house or piece of land? that he owned? or where he lived?
Would he have to perform the duty at home? close to his home but outside? outdoors? indoors? neither?
Did he perform the duty at least once in his life?
Did the duty involve: cleaning? moving objects? picking up/removing objects?
Was the duty some kind of physical exercise?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 12:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sundowner

Did he not do the duty? no have someone else to do it? no find an excuse for not doing it? YES cover it up in some way so that nobody noticed that he did not do it? this also is true change something in his life so that the duty would not longer apply to him? in a way, yes
Relevant who imposed the duty on him? YES His father? mother? a child? a relative? a person he knows? the government? the police? a law court? none of thsoe
Did he have a chance to reject when the duty was imposed on him? he found his way to get out of it
Was he a child at this moment? no
Was he elected for some office or position? not sure - but possibly. worth exploring
Would he have had a chance to get out of the duty in a legal and generally accepted way? no, this was a clever ruse on his part
Was the duty related to a house or piece of land? that he owned? or where he lived? no to all
Would he have to perform the duty at home? yes close to his home but outside? outdoors? indoors? neither?
Did he perform the duty at least once in his life?yes
Did the duty involve: cleaning? YES moving objects? picking up/removing objects?
Was the duty some kind of physical exercise? only in that cleaning involves movement
Pikachizzle (Pikachizzle)
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Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 1:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Will he lose his job if he doesn't clean?
Does 'lazy' mean he DOESN'T want to do it?
If he wanted to, can he clean whatever he needs to effectively?
Does he need / want the time that he wouldn't cleaned with for some other activity?
Pikachizzle (Pikachizzle)
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Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 1:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

would've*
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 8:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

the duty imposer: some remote authority, perhaps manifested by an icon or portrait? something he read, or was told or otherwise heard?
was the duty imposed specifically on him, or on him and others (like JFK's "ask not...")?
was the duty imposed by a spiritual authority? a trade/labor authority?
is this a duty which others have? is it common?
cleaning something pertaining to food? clothing? personal hygiene?
(the guy did brush his teeth, didn't he?)
cleaning walls/ceiling/floors/doors? utensils/tools?
did he make any effort to look like he was carrying out the duty, just pretend? or was he completely idle, and essentially just said he had done it?
who was he interested in believing he had fulfilled his duty -- neighbors? relatives? strangers? intimates?
was he interested in anyone at all believing he had fulfilled his duty (met his obligation)?
do I have this duty? do you? is it assigned specifically, or at random?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 8:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he have to clean something in his house? around his house? windows? door? walls?
Did some city official impose this duty on him? in the style "your house is a shame for the whole village"?
Did his excuse include: that his health does not allow to do it? that he is to clumsy and would make it only worse? that he is too busy? that he is doing other valuable things for the society? that the things he ought to clean would be damaged if he does so? that he is planning to do something else which would mean that the duty becomes obsolete? that he's planning to sell the house anyway?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 8:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Pikachizzle - hi and welcome!

Will he lose his job if he doesn't clean? no, but only because of his clever ruse, otherwise it's possible
Does 'lazy' mean he DOESN'T want to do it? yes
If he wanted to, can he clean whatever he needs to effectively? yes
Does he need / want the time that he wouldn't cleaned with for some other activity? irrelevant to the puzzle
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 8:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yojimbo

the duty imposer: some remote authority, perhaps manifested by an icon or portrait? yes, explore something he read, or was told or otherwise heard? it was common knowledge in his walk of life
was the duty imposed specifically on him, or on him and others yes (like JFK's "ask not...")?
was the duty imposed by a spiritual authority? YES a trade/labor authority? no
is this a duty which others have? yes is it common? in some places yes, very
cleaning something pertaining to food? clothing? this one - excellent personal hygiene?
(the guy did brush his teeth, didn't he?) I'm not privy to his personal ablutions, but irrelevant!
cleaning walls/ceiling/floors/doors? utensils/tools? no to all
did he make any effort to look like he was carrying out the duty, just pretend? no or was he completely idle, and essentially just said he had done it? no
who was he interested in believing he had fulfilled his duty -- neighbors? relatives? strangers? intimates? all of them if they knew about it
was he interested in anyone at all believing he had fulfilled his duty (met his obligation)? he just used his ruse to get out of doing it so there was no obligation on him
do I have this duty? I doubt it - I did a bit of Googling you btw. Do you have a canteen with you all the time? do you? no is it assigned specifically, or at random? AFAIK it applies to all within a particular walk of life
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 8:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sundowner

Did he have to clean something in his house? around his house? windows? door? walls? no, it was clothing as you will see from my answers just now to Yojimbo
Did some city official impose this duty on him? no in the style "your house is a shame for the whole village"? no
Did his excuse include: that his health does not allow to do it? that he is to clumsy and would make it only worse? that he is too busy? that he is doing other valuable things for the society? that the things he ought to clean would be damaged if he does so? that he is planning to do something else which would mean that the duty becomes obsolete? that he's planning to sell the house anyway? no to all, he just used his clever ruse to get out of the obligation to clean his clothing
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 10:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was he some kind of monk? Buddhist monk? relevant?
Is it relevant how in particular he was supposed to clean his clothes?
Was he supposed to clean his clothes even if they were not dirty? or just to "keep them clean"?
Did he find a way to get less dirty? or a way to be allowed to have his clothes more dirty than prescribed?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 10:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a particular piece of garment? or just his clothing in general?
Is the occupation of our man relevant? if so: is the occupation related to: military? government? law enforcement? HM Royal Mail? food? school system? public services? utilities? religion?
Is this (piece of) clothing something he did wear in his job? Is it a typical (or traditional) clothing for people in this occupation?
Would cleaning of the clothing mean: washing? dry cleaning? something else?
Did he make his clothing appear clean in some other way? Did find a way how it was not so obvious that he does not clean it? Did he have a good excuse why his clothing is dirty at some particular moment (though he had cleaned it just yesterday ..)?
Is a particular kind of un-cleanness relevant? (sand? coal dust?)
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 11:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tommyp

Was he some kind of monk? no Buddhist monk? no relevant? OTRT
Is it relevant how in particular he was supposed to clean his clothes? I don't know the details I'm afraid even if they were not dirty? yessish or just to "keep them clean"? no, it was more than that
Did he find a way to get less dirty? no or a way to be allowed to have his clothes more dirty than prescribed? noish
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 12:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sundowner

Is it a particular piece of garment? yessish or just his clothing in general? yessish
Is the occupation of our man relevant? yes, although it may apply to others even if they don't do the same job if so: is the occupation related to: military? government? law enforcement? HM Royal Mail? food? school system? public services? utilities? religion? this one
Is this (piece of) clothing something he did wear in his job? yes Is it a typical (or traditional) clothing for people in this occupation? yes, good question
Would cleaning of the clothing mean: washing? dry cleaning? something else? I would imagine washing
Did he make his clothing appear clean in some other way? yes Did find a way how it was not so obvious that he does not clean it? no Did he have a good excuse why his clothing is dirty at some particular moment (though he had cleaned it just yesterday ..)? all I can say is that he should have washed it but found a good excuse not to
Is a particular kind of un-cleanness relevant? YES - good question (sand? coal dust?)but not these
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 1:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was he a bishop? priest? parson? vicar? deacon? other person in the clergy?
Catholic? Protestant? Other? Relevant?
Does his occupation involve: travelling? interacting with people? teaching? making a tangible product?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 3:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sundowner

Was he a bishop? priest? parson? vicar? deacon? no other person in the clergy? yessish
Catholic? Protestant? Other? this one Relevant? yes
Does his occupation involve: travelling? possibly, but not much interacting with people? yes teaching? yes making a tangible product? no
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 8:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is he in North America? South Am? Europe? Africa? Asia? Australia? Other?
Was his excuse that washing his clothes would have a negative effect? damaging the clothes? killing microscopic animals?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 8:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tommyp

Is he in North America? South Am? Europe?some say this Africa? Asia? and others say this Australia? Other? and others have a different description of the area
Was his excuse that washing his clothes would have a negative effect? damaging the clothes? killing microscopic animals? no
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 8:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is he a real person? a person living now? living in exile? Dalai Lama (he seems lazy, but he is of course already ruled out...)?
...or is it Santa Claus? Billy Bob Thornton?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 9:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tommyp

Is he a real person? no, this was an apocryphal story, but the details are plausible a person living now? living in exile? Dalai Lama (he seems lazy, but he is of course already ruled out...)?
...or is it Santa Claus? Billy Bob Thornton? no to all
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 12:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the uncleanliness involve: Smell? Discoloration? Other? Did he cover it up? Or make it less noticeable? For instance by keping it dark inside? Is the garment white? Is its color relevant? Type of textile relevant? If so: Cotton? Silk? Linen? Synthetic? Other?
Did he have any reason besides laziness?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 1:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Galfisk

Did the uncleanliness involve: Smell? Discoloration? Other? this Did he cover it up? only in a manner of speaking Or make it less noticeable? no For instance by keping it dark inside? no Is the garment white? no Is its color relevant? it may help identify the man's job but not its level of cleanliness Type of textile relevant? If so: Cotton? Silk? Linen? Synthetic? Other? I don't know, probably cotton
Did he have any reason besides laziness? no
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was he a rabbi? Kosher food relevant? Other aspects of "kosherness"?
Was the piece of garment: a hat? a shirt? a tie? a jacket? trousers? socks? shoes? a coat? gauntlets? a vast? a belt?
Was the color: black? white? yellow? red? purple? violet? blue? green? brown? pink?
Was the relevant kind of uncleanness: stains? fading color? grease? some sort of contamination? contact with "unclean" objects?
Did the clothing get dirty while the man was doing his job?
Would the uncleanness be obvious to a stranger who was not present during the act of "becoming unclean"?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 4:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was he a rabbi? no, but OTRT Kosher food relevant? Other aspects of "kosherness"? no
Was the piece of garment: a hat? a shirt? a tie? a jacket? trousers? socks? shoes? a coat? gauntlets? a vast? a belt? none of those
Was the color: black? white? yellow? red? purple? violet? blue? green? brown? pink? black
Was the relevant kind of uncleanness: stains? fading color? grease? some sort of contamination? contact with "unclean" objects? spot on - well done
Did the clothing get dirty while the man was doing his job? probably not
Would the uncleanness be obvious to a stranger who was not present during the act of "becoming unclean"? no
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 4:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A robe? Did he have more than one piece of garment? Relevant? The garment was not dirty in a physical sense, right? Was he expected to clean it in a certain manner? Holy water relevant? Similar? Was the cleaning he was supposed to do physical? Or just spiritual? Did he substitute one for the other?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 4:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gslfisk

A robe? YES Did he have more than one piece of garment? not that's relevant Relevant? The garment was not dirty in a physical sense, right? correct Was he expected to clean it in a certain manner? I don't know, but irrelevant Holy water relevant? Similar? I don't know, irrelevant Was the cleaning he was supposed to do physical? yes Or just spiritual? no Did he substitute one for the other? spiritual cleaning for physical? No
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 9:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So there is some sort of religious rule involved, that "if you do this, your clothes are unclean afterwards"? and ought to be cleaned to remove the "unclean status"? even if you can't see any dirt?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 2:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he do only part of the cleaning routine, to make it appear that he had done it all? Such as hanging his robe out to dry, without having actually washed it?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 7:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tommyp

So there is some sort of religious rule involved, that "if you do this, your clothes are unclean afterwards"? and ought to be cleaned to remove the "unclean status"? even if you can't see any dirt? yes

Galfisk

Did he do only part of the cleaning routine, to make it appear that he had done it all? Such as hanging his robe out to dry, without having actually washed it? no
Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
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Does this take place in the Middle East? Is this a member of the clergy of one of the Abrahamic religions? Islam? Judaism?

Time period relevant? If so, LTPF list of centuries, please.
Lynne (Lynne)
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Probably_monty_hall

Does this take place in the Middle East? YES well done Is this a member of the clergy of one of the Abrahamic religions? yes Islam? yes Judaism?

Time period relevant? not particularly so as I think that it may well still apply If so, LTPF list of centuries, please. early 20th century and to save invoking the LTPF list of countries it was Persia before it became Iran
Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
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So would it be accurate to call this a spiritual uncleanliness? Physical (as in, soiled)? Both?

Is the use of "cheekiness" in the title relevant? Perhaps he had gone to the bathroom? Had sex? Come into other contact with a woman? Eaten? Touched food? Gone to an "unclean" place?
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Probably_monty_hall

So would it be accurate to call this a spiritual uncleanliness? yes Physical (as in, soiled)? yessish Both? yes

Is the use of "cheekiness" in the title relevant? only because he had a funny ruse to get out of the duty Perhaps he had gone to the bathroom? Had sex? Come into other contact with a woman? Eaten? Touched food? Gone to an "unclean" place? you have the right idea but it was none of these
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Was he an undertaker?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Sundowner

Was he an undertaker? nope
Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
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Would it require fairly advanced knowledge of Islamic customs and/or beliefs to determine the source of the uncleanliness? Is this even relevant? Or is it more important to focus on what he did to get out of cleaning his robe?

Did his ruse involve making use of other robes than the one that was unclean?
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Did he make another interpretation of some sort of the customs on cleaning? so that he could feel he had done the right thing, while having done almost nothing?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Probably_monty_hall

Would it require fairly advanced knowledge of Islamic customs and/or beliefs to determine the source of the uncleanliness? not really, it's an unsurprising source, and it just takes some regular LTPF type questions (that surprisingly haven't been asked yet) to get to the answer Is this even relevant? sorry, is what relevant? Or is it more important to focus on what he did to get out of cleaning his robe? ah, the reason for his being unclean is vital to the answer as his craftiness was directly related to it

Did his ruse involve making use of other robes than the one that was unclean? no
Lynne (Lynne)
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Tommyp

Did he make another interpretation of some sort of the customs on cleaning? no so that he could feel he had done the right thing, while having done almost nothing? not really
Lynne (Lynne)
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HINTY WINTY

I was going to use just one word for the title of this puzzle but stopped part way through it
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Is Meta the beginning of your original title word?
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Metabolic/metabolism?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Tommyp

Is Meta the beginning of your original title word? yes indeed

Noel

Metabolic/metabolism? but not these
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Metaphysical?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Tommyp

Metaphysical? nope
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Metaphorical?
Was his clothing unclean in some methaphorical way? and he did some methaphorical cleaning?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Sundowner

Metaphorical?
Was his clothing unclean in some methaphorical way? and he did some methaphorical cleaning? no metaphors here, I'm afraid
Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
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Metacarpals? Metatarsals? Related to hand- or foot-washing?

Metal?

Would the one-word title of the puzzle have used "meta" as a prefix? Meaning self-referential? Of a higher order? Behind? Change?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Probably Monty Hall

Metacarpals? Metatarsals? Related to hand- or foot-washing? none of those

Metal? nice idea but no

Would the one-word title of the puzzle have used "meta" as a prefix? yes Meaning self-referential? Of a higher order? Behind? Change? This one - well done
Quovynyte (Quovynyte)
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Are any of these words inside this word?
Metal? Metabolic?
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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metamorphosis?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Quovynyte

Are any of these words inside this word?
Metal? Metabolic? no

Tommmyp

metamorphosis? tada - YES
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 12:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK, so now we just have to solve the puzzle...

It's some sort of Islamic/traditional rule about uncleanliness after some task is done that is in the midst of this, right? and that rule says that you have to do some cleaning afterwards?
Does that rule say that one or more named pieces of clothes are to be cleaned? and does he have such a garment? but does he somehow make that garment become another, which is not on "the list"?
Is this just for himself being able to think he's doing the right thing? would other people say he's just cheating? or doing OK? does anyone else know what he's doing?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Tommyp

OK, so now we just have to solve the puzzle... LOL

It's some sort of Islamic/traditional rule about uncleanliness after some task is done that is in the midst of this, right? not a task and that rule says that you have to do some cleaning afterwards? but if you are unclean for this reason then you clean your robe (Galfisk discovered the robe)
Does that rule say that one or more named pieces of clothes are to be cleaned? and does he have such a garment? as has been discovered, it's his robe but does he somehow make that garment become another, no, not his robe which is not on "the list"? but something does 'become' something that's not on the unclean list
Is this just for himself being able to think he's doing the right thing? he doesn't involve any other people, or are they 'interested parties' would other people say he's just cheating? quite probably! or doing OK? they may pinch the idea for themselves if they are lazy too does anyone else know what he's doing? only if they are watching him at the time
Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 6:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In this puzzle, does 'metamorphosis' relate to the change in an organism from one development stage to the next?

Are amphibians relevant? Moths or butterflies? Perhaps his robe has been in storage?

Or does metamorphosis mean 'change' more generally?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 7:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Probably monty hall

In this puzzle, does 'metamorphosis' relate to the change in an organism from one development stage to the next? no

Are amphibians relevant? Moths or butterflies? Perhaps his robe has been in storage? no to all

Or does metamorphosis mean 'change' more generally? no, it's quite specific and total
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 9:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So something does a "total change"? and it's not the robe that changes into something else?
Is it that which makes to robe unclean that changes? before it makes the robe unclean? after?
Does he just walk into the water with the robe on? or otherwise gets water on it to be able to define it clean? or something else than water?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 9:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Or rather than getting something on it that defines it as clean, does he go someplace which would make his robe be considered clean?
Holiness relevant? If so: of substances? Rites/prayers? Places?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Tommyp

So something does a "total change"? in a manner of speaking and it's not the robe that changes into something else? correct
Is it that which makes to robe unclean that changes? yes before it makes the robe unclean? after? this
Does he just walk into the water with the robe on? no or otherwise gets water on it to be able to define it clean? no or something else than water? no

Galfisk

Or rather than getting something on it that defines it as clean, does he go someplace which would make his robe be considered clean? no
Holiness relevant? yes If so: of substances? no Rites/prayers? this Places? no
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 11:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So it's something like he prays to God to bless the robe? bless what made it unclean?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Tommyp

So it's something like he prays to God to bless the robe? OTRT but not that bless what made it unclean? no...
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 10:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

does he bless the robe himself? Does he do a ritual that is meant to purify him? Or to purify something else? And interpret it to include his clothes as well?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Galfisk

does he bless the robe himself? Does he do a ritual that is meant to purify him? Or to purify something else? And interpret it to include his clothes as well? no to all
Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
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Is the change physical in nature? Spiritual?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Probably monty hall

Is the change physical in nature? yope Spiritual? and therefore this is relevant
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Is there any visible change at all? any change detectable in any way? or just, "by religous definition", now purer?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Tommyp

Is there any visible change at all? no any change detectable in any way? no or just, "by religous definition", now purer? yes, but remember he was being crafty
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Is he doing a specific thing that makes his robe defined as clean? Something he wouldn't have to do if he washed it instead? Or something he would do anyway? Does he himself "make" it clean? Or is someone else doing the act? Is he interpreting something (such as a ritual, or the definition of spiritualy "clean") in a broader or different way than usual?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Thursday, November 26, 2009 - 1:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does he have to do what he does every time he would otherwise had washed is robe?
I seem to remember a concept in which an object that has been in contact with something holy will itself become holy, is this relevant?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Thursday, November 26, 2009 - 9:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Galfisk

Is he doing a specific thing that makes his robe defined as clean? yessish Something he wouldn't have to do if he washed it instead? yes Or something he would do anyway? no Does he himself "make" it clean? yes Or is someone else doing the act? no Is he interpreting something (such as a ritual, or the definition of spiritualy "clean") in a broader or different way than usual? no ritual involved, but what he does turns the unclean into clean - but it's a crafty, unorthodox thing that he does

Does he have to do what he does every time he would otherwise had washed is robe? I believe he would, but this is an anecdote and as such I would imagine he would only get away with it the once
I seem to remember a concept in which an object that has been in contact with something holy will itself become holy, is this relevant? you're thinking along the right lines but you are near but so far!
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Thursday, November 26, 2009 - 11:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Not so much a hint as a refocus suggestion

Concentrate on what made him unclean
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Posted on Thursday, November 26, 2009 - 1:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was he (when he got unclean) doing something most people does? both men and women? muslims? non-muslims?
Was it what he did that made him unclean? or where he did it? or how how did it? or did it not matter what he did, it didn't affect that he got unclean?
Is someone else involved in him getting unclean?
Did he get unclean every day? every week? special occasions?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Thursday, November 26, 2009 - 1:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tommyp

Was he (when he got unclean) doing something most people does? both men and women? muslims? non-muslims? yes to all, although it doesn't necessarily make non-muslims unclean, it depends on their own faith
Was it what he did that made him unclean? yessish, but there is a FA here or where he did it? some places would make it highly unlikely or how how did it? difficult to answer because of the FA or did it not matter what he did, it didn't affect that he got unclean? there is an element of this
Is someone else involved in him getting unclean? yes is the simplest answer but there is a FA
Did he get unclean every day? possibly every week? possibly special occasions? probably not
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Posted on Thursday, November 26, 2009 - 1:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the FA that it's not he ho gets unclean, but his robe?

If so, it was more a case of SW than FA (Sloppy Writing, on my part)...
Lynne (Lynne)
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Tommyp

Is the FA that it's not he ho gets unclean, but his robe? no - there is a regular LTP question that just hasn't been touched on!
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Monday, November 30, 2009 - 3:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'd love for this one to carry on. I've just Googled to see if this constraint is still the case today and it apparently is. It must be hard to see westerners living this way and it may well be that contact with western culture has led to some Muslims ignoring the constraint. I personally would find it almost impossible to 'do without'. Does that give you a clue?
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Eating food relevant? drinking?
Toilets relevant? left/right hand? water relevant?
halal relevant?
Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
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This person is some type of Muslim cleric, right?

Is the man's robe actually unclean (under the rules/customs of the man's religion/location)? That is, would an observer with full knowledge of the situation consider the man's robe unclean?

Did the man's robe actually come into contact with something else? Or is it considered unclean because of some other occurrence?

Did the man simply change a rule regarding cleanliness? Either that the unclean thing is no longer considered unclean? Or that the ritual/act required for cleaning is now different?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Tommyp

Glad to see this isn't dead, thank you!

Eating food relevant? drinking?
Toilets relevant? left/right hand? water relevant?
halal relevant? none of these!

Probably_monty_hall

This person is some type of Muslim cleric, right? yes, but this does apply across the board

Is the man's robe actually unclean (under the rules/customs of the man's religion/location)? That is, would an observer with full knowledge of the situation consider the man's robe unclean? yes to both

Did the man's robe actually come into contact with something else? YES Or is it considered unclean because of some other occurrence? no

Did the man simply change a rule regarding cleanliness? not a rule, but he supposedly changed something which is yet to be found out Either that the unclean thing is no longer considered unclean? no, he knew that what he had come into contact with would always remain unclean Or that the ritual/act required for cleaning is now different? no
Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 10:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

please forgive me if I'm retreading old ground here

-Was the man wearing the robe when it became unclean? Relevant?
-How long before the man "cleaned" his robe had it become unclean? seconds? minutes? hours? days? weeks? more?
-Did the man actively cause the robe to come into contact with the other thing? Was the contact accidental? Did someone else cause the contact?
-Was the thing that the robe came into contact with alive at the time? Alive at some time? Never living?
-The thing that the robe came into contact with: solid? liquid? gas? animal? vegetable? mineral?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 7:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 10:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
please forgive me if I'm retreading old ground here

-Was the man wearing the robe when it became unclean? Relevant?
Probably_monty_hall

-How long before the man "cleaned" his robe had it become unclean? seconds? minutes? hours? days? weeks? more? seconds
-Did the man actively cause the robe to come into contact with the other thing? Was the contact accidental? this Did someone else cause the contact? yes, with a bit of a FA
-Was the thing that the robe came into contact with alive at the time? yes Alive at some time? Never living?
-The thing that the robe came into contact with: solid? liquid? gas? animal? this one vegetable? mineral?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Post Number: 4184
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 7:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry, the posting got a bit jumbled up with copying and pasting.

Was the man wearing the robe when it became unclean? yes Relevant? not really, but he was wearing it in this anecdote, so perhaps yes
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 9:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the animal a pig? smaller than a pig? larger? domesticated? wild?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Post Number: 4185
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 12:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tommyp

Was the animal a pig? no smaller than a pig? yes larger? domesticated? noish wild? sort of
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 12:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it an insect? bird?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Post Number: 4186
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 12:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tommyp

Was it an insect? bird? no to both
Ostap (Ostap)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant how it came that he had contact with dogs? was it accidentally? did his job require to touch dogs? were there just always dogs around in the places where he was?
Was it one particular dog? his own dog?
Did he "define" the dog to be (or to represent) something else?
Did the dog(s) do something that qualified them to be somewhat cleaner than a usual dog? something that outweighs their uncleanness (like: guarding the premises of a mosquet?)
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 2:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ostap - welcome to the puzzle!

Relevant how it came that he had contact with dogs? now this is very interesting! Yes it was a dog, but not once has the word dog been used in this puzzle. Did you just visualise dog throughout the puzzle? Did my clue of saying that I couldn't 'go without' (my dog) help you? Anyway, well done, it was a dog was it accidentally? yes did his job require to touch dogs? NO were there just always dogs around in the places where he was? quite likely
Was it one particular dog? no his own dog? no
Did he "define" the dog to be (or to represent) something else? no, he didn't define it, but he did something to make it something else
Did the dog(s) do something that qualified them to be somewhat cleaner than a usual dog? no something that outweighs their uncleanness (like: guarding the premises of a mosquet?) dogs were used as guard dogs even in humble homes, and no doubt at a mosque, but the devout religious would avoid touching or being touched by them

so we now know that he was accidentally touched by a dog which rendered him 'unclean'. What did he do to get out of cleaning his robe?
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He sainted the dog?

We broke Century on this one...
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 7:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tommyp

He sainted the dog? nope! - think back to earlier questions. The concept is quite clear if you read carefully....:-)

We broke Century on this one... LOL - thanks for sticking with it and doing such a lot of groundwork
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 7:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As I understand it from before, the dog underwent some sort of metamorphosis? after it touched his robe? or "before next time"?
Are not all dogs considered unclean? only sexually active? neutering relevant?

Too much work "reading carefully", watch it so we don't ask for a "Careful recap"... ;-)
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 7:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As I understand it from before, the dog underwent some sort of metamorphosis? YES after it touched his robe? yes or "before next time"? no, next time he would still be the same unclean dog
Are not all dogs considered unclean? they all are in this context only sexually active? they're that as well, but irrelevant neutering relevant? no

Too much work "reading carefully", watch it so we don't ask for a "Careful recap"... ;-) LOL, but I didn't want to spell out the key word - but you got there anyway
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 7:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the dog still alive after the metamorphosis?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 7:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tommyp

Was the dog still alive after the metamorphosis? yes
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 8:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it wet? Is it likely the dog got scared by the metamorphosis? or even happy? or not giving off much reaction?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 8:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tommyp

Was it wet? irrelevant Is it likely the dog got scared by the metamorphosis? NO or even happy? or not giving off much reaction? no reaction whatsoever
Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 8:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The dog wouldn't have even known about the change, right? In fact, was the change even visible?

Did the man redefine what constitutes a "dog"? Did the man define this specific dog as something other than a dog? Like "Whoa, did you see that fox right there?"
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 8:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Probably_monty_hall

The dog wouldn't have even known about the change, right? correct In fact, was the change even visible? no

Did the man redefine what constitutes a "dog"? no Did the man define this specific dog as something other than a dog? yes... Like "Whoa, did you see that fox right there?" definitely OTRT but needs a bit of tweaking
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 8:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he redefine the dog as another animal? or something like a "dog god"?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 8:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tommyp

Did he redefine the dog as another animal? yes or something like a "dog god"? nothing like that
Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 8:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would it be helpful to know the breed of dog?

Did he say the dog was a Saluki? a Goat? Sheep?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 8:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Probably_monty_hall

Would it be helpful to know the breed of dog? no

Did he say the dog was a Saluki? a Goat? Sheep?
none of those
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 8:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it just relevant that the animal is not considered unclean? or does it have to be a specific kind of animal? a specific animal? a specific way of redefinition?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 8:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tommyp

Is it just relevant that the animal is not considered unclean? correct or does it have to be a specific kind of animal? but his choice of animal was funny which is why it's been immortalised as an anecdote in a book a specific animal? so yes a specific way of redefinition? and this too
Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 8:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, did he redefine the dog as a cloven-hoofed animal? 4-legged? mammal?

To refresh, did other people actually see the dog come into contact with the man? So the man would have to choose a different animal that looks similar to a dog, right?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 8:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Probably monty hall

Ok, did he redefine the dog as a cloven-hoofed animal? no 4-legged? mammal? yes

To refresh, did other people actually see the dog come into contact with the man? probably which is why he went through this charade So the man would have to choose a different animal that looks similar to a dog, right? well, no the animal isn't really similar (so not a fox)
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 8:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A (house) cat? any cat-like animal? like a lion? any other animal with claws?
Animal smaller than a standard dog? bigger?
Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 8:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was that a 'yes' for 4-legged as well?

it wasn't a child, was it?

Was it an animal that would have been common in that part of the world and/or in his village?

Is the animal similar in size to a dog (s/m/l?)? Covered in fur? Does it have a tail?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 8:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tommyp

A (house) cat? YES any cat-like animal? like a lion? any other animal with claws?
Animal smaller than a standard dog? bigger?

and so thanks for you questions, but no to all, Probably monty hall
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 8:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So we now know that he 'turned' the dog into a cat, but he was a Muslim cleric and simply saying that wouldn't be enough - so what did he actually say?
Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 9:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could what he said have been said by someone other than a cleric?

Did he issue a decree?

Did he "inform" onlookers of a recent rule change (likely one that hadn't actually taken place)?
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 9:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he use a Koran quote?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 9:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Probably monty hall

Could what he said have been said by someone other than a cleric? yes - I only emphasised the fact that he was a cleric in order to imply integrity, even when he was being crafty

Did he issue a decree? no

Did he "inform" onlookers of a recent rule change (likely one that hadn't actually taken place)? no

Tommyp

Did he use a Koran quote?
I'm afraid that I don't know if his words are in there, but it is used extensively by Muslims
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 11:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK, this has ground to a halt again and as so much has been found I'm just going to spoil. It's not easy to find out a particular saying if you are not familiar with it.

*********** SPOILER ************
The story goes that a Muslim cleric accidentally got touched by a passing dog, rendering him unclean. Immediately he said 'Inshallah, (God willing), it was a cat!'


Thank you one and all - there was a lot of team work as usual.
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Posted on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think that would have taken time to find out the exact wording of... ;-)
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 4:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I thought that somebody might have got at least the concept of it seeing as Monty said "Whoa, did you see that fox right there?", but unless you're familiar with the inshallah concept, that precise wording would indeed have been impossible.
Tommyp (Tommyp)
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Posted on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 4:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It's usually like that, I sometimes think when running puzzles: "they have found out the harder stuff, why are they missing the easiest of it all...?

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