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Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2010 - 8:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A few days ago, I learned something that makes for another interesting folk music puzzle. It concerns the origin of the unusual name of a particular Scottish band. Your goal is to work out the name, find what's unusual about it and why.
Ixoye724 (Ixoye724)
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Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2010 - 8:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmmmm....

Does the band's name contain the name of a -
food? animal? school? tool? car? landmark? city? country? geographical area? famous person? little-known person? component of the solar system? color? number? letter of the alphabet? body of water? type of clothing? name of a business? slogan? profanity? rarely used word or words? word or words that are difficult to pronounce?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2010 - 9:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmmmm.... Look out for FAs, by the way... :p

Does the band's name contain the name of a -
food? animal? school? tool? car? landmark? city? country? geographical area? famous person? Within certain parts of Scotland, he's famous. little-known person? But most people outside Scotland will never have heard of him. His name, btw, is not the unusual part of the band's name. component of the solar system? color? number? letter of the alphabet? body of water? type of clothing? name of a business? slogan? profanity? rarely used word or words? word or words that are difficult to pronounce? None of the others.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2010 - 10:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is his name part of the band's name? Does the name take the form of "Person and the Somethings"? Is there a noun in the name? A verb? Are there any words in the band's name? Any numbers? Punctuation marks? (I've heard of a band where the band's name is !!! - is this relevant?)
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Friday, August 20, 2010 - 6:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is his name part of the band's name? Yes. Does the name take the form of "Person and the Somethings"? No. Is there a noun in the name? Several. A verb? No. Are there any words in the band's name? Yes. Any numbers? No. Punctuation marks? No. (I've heard of a band where the band's name is !!! - is this relevant?) No.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, August 20, 2010 - 6:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could the nouns be considered to be a list? Are any other people's names in the band name? Would the nouns be considered objects? Tangible? Intangible?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 7:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could the nouns be considered to be a list? Two of them, in a sense. Are any other people's names in the band name? No. Would the nouns be considered objects? Except for one, yes. Tangible? Yes. Intangible?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 7:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the word "and" in the band name? Do the words rhyme? With the name? Do all the words have something in common? With the name?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 11:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the word "and" in the band name? Yes. Do the words rhyme? With the name? Do all the words have something in common? With the name? No to the rest.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 4:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Not counting the person's name, are there two nouns in the band name? Three? Four? Five? More?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - 7:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Not counting the person's name, are there two nouns in the band name? Three? This. Four? Five? More?
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - 1:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Beside the three nouns, the person's name and the word "and", is there any other word? 1, 2, 3, 4, etc?

Are there any adjectives?

Is the person's whole name (i.e. name AND surname) included in the band name?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - 8:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Beside the three nouns, the person's name and the word "and", is there any other word? 1, 2, This. The words are "of" and "the." 3, 4, etc?

Are there any adjectives? The person's name might be considered an adjective.

Is the person's whole name (i.e. name AND surname) included in the band name? Just the surname.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - 8:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the person's name in the possessive (i.e. Murphy's)? Does the name go "surname noun of noun the noun"? Do the "of" and "the" evenly intersperse with the nouns? (Does that make sense?)
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 9:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the band name something like "surname noun and the noun of noun"?

Does the band name include references to other artists? Or is it a pun on some more famous artists/songs/albums? (Ex. The Sergent Pepper's something?)

Concerning the 2 nouns which are objects:
Are these objects rare or common? Do they exist in nature or are they man-made? Are they smaller than a tennis ball? a basket ball? a chair? a car? bigger than a car?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 6:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the person's name in the possessive (i.e. Murphy's)? Yes, sort of, though there's no "'s". Does the name go "surname noun of noun the noun"? No. Do the "of" and "the" evenly intersperse with the nouns? No. (Does that make sense?) I think so.

Is the band name something like "surname noun and the noun of noun"? No.

Does the band name include references to other artists? No. Or is it a pun on some more famous artists/songs/albums? (Ex. The Sergent Pepper's something?) No.

Concerning the 2 nouns which are objects:
Are these objects rare or common? Common, though one is generally rarer than the other. Do they exist in nature or are they man-made? Manmade. Are they smaller than a tennis ball? a basket ball? No. a chair? Yes. a car? bigger than a car?
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 9:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the objects tools? Electronic devices? Pieces of furniture?

Are they connected to one or more of the following fields: music, sports, religion, military, politics, theater, hunting, fishing, industry, transportation?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 8:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the objects tools? Electronic devices? Pieces of furniture? None of these.

Are they connected to one or more of the following fields: music This., sports, religion, military And this., politics, theater, hunting, fishing, industry, transportation?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 8:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are both items connected to both music and military? Or is one connected to music and one to military? Is either of the items an instrument? Both of them?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 9:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are both items connected to both music and military? This. Or is one connected to music and one to military? Is either of the items an instrument? Both of them? This.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 10:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is one of the items a trumpet? Bugle? Drum?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2010 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is one of the items a trumpet? Bugle? Drum? This, and it's drums.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2010 - 7:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The other instrument: Is it woodwind? Brass? Stringed? Percussion?

The "possessive surname": is one of the nouns used with the surname and the word "of" (as in "the drums of Murphy")?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2010 - 5:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The other instrument: Is it woodwind? Close. Brass? Stringed? Percussion?

The "possessive surname": is one of the nouns used with the surname and the word "of" (as in "the drums of Murphy")? Yes, but now that I think about it there are two possessives in the name.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2010 - 1:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the instrument require a reed?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2010 - 5:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the instrument require a reed? Yes.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2010 - 8:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a clarinet? Oboe? Bagpipes (don't know if that needs a reed)?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2010 - 10:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a clarinet? Oboe? Bagpipes This. (don't know if that needs a reed)? Turns out it does.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, August 30, 2010 - 5:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Interesting...I did not know that.

So in the band name, we have:

-a surname which is "-ish" in the possessive
-"of"
-"the"
-"drums"
-"bagpipes"

Is this all correct? Did I miss anything?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Monday, August 30, 2010 - 11:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So in the band name, we have:

-a surname which is "-ish" in the possessive
-"of"
-"the"
-"drums"
-"bagpipes" Just "pipes", actually.

Is this all correct? Yes. Did I miss anything? The word "and."

There's one more word, which might be harder to work out, though once you get in the right category I'll tell you.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 12:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the extra word a/an [LTPF list of parts of speech, including articles]? Is the phrase "drums and pipes" in the band name? Vice versa?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 2:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the extra word a/an [LTPF list of parts of speech, including articles]? Noun. Is the phrase "drums and pipes" in the band name? Yes. Vice versa?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 4:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the noun a tangible object? If so, is the object a tool? Electronic device? Piece of furniture? Instrument?

Is it connected to one or more of the following fields: music, sports, religion, military, politics, theater, hunting, fishing, industry, transportation?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 4:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the noun a tangible object? I wouldn't call it an object, but it is tangible. If so, is the object a tool? Electronic device? Piece of furniture? Instrument? None of these. It's also multiple.

Is it connected to one or more of the following fields: music, sports, religion, military, This. (You had to know this was a military-history puzzle, didn't you?) politics, theater, hunting, fishing, industry, transportation?
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 10:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this last noun the name of a weapon? Of a war/battle? Of a military body? A military "position" (e.g. soldier, lieutenant, etc)? is it related to military service?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 11:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this last noun the name of a weapon? No. Of a war/battle? No. Of a military body? Yes. A military "position" (e.g. soldier, lieutenant, etc)? Yes. is it related to military service? Yes.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 12:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Recruit? Grunt? Is it a noun stricly used within the Scottish military, or is it used elsewhere?
Is it related to army? Navy? Air force?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Recruit? Grunt? Neither. Is it a noun strictly used within the Scottish military, This. or is it used elsewhere? It's been used elsewhere, but so far as I know is not used today in the same context by anyone else.
Is it related to army? This. Navy? Air force?
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 12:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Colonel? Major? General? Lieutenant? Brigadier? Regiment? Battalion?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 4:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No, I didn't realize this was a military history puzzle. *SMACKs self* And yes, I should have expected nothing less from a Jenburdoo puzzle.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 11:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Colonel? Major? General? Lieutenant? Brigadier? Regiment? Battalion? The unit is one of the latter two, depending on context. It is a Highland regimental band -- of the Gordon Highlanders, to be precise. You have all the puzzle pieces now; put together the rest of the name, and then figure out what's unusual about it. Please don't look it up.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2010 - 10:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So if I get it right, is the name "The drums and pipes of [surname] regiment/battalion"?
Or rather "The [surname] regiment/battalion of drums and pipes"?

Is "Gordon" the sought-after surname?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2010 - 12:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So if I get it right, is the name "The drums and pipes of [surname] regiment/battalion"? Yesish...
Or rather "The [surname] regiment/battalion of drums and pipes"?

Is "Gordon" the sought-after surname? Yes. The name is "The Drums and Pipes of the Gordon Highlanders."

Now for Step Two: What's unusual about this name?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2010 - 12:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there an actual Gordon Highlanders regiment? Does this group consist of members from the regiment? Does the band have any drums in it? Pipes?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2010 - 12:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there an actual Gordon Highlanders regiment? Does this group consist of members from the regiment? Does the band have any drums in it? Pipes? Yes to all.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2010 - 2:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the "unusual" thing related to the grammar? To the pronounciation? To the number/order of the words? To one particular word out of the 8? To the meaning of the words? Any double/hidden meaning relevant?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2010 - 4:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the "unusual" thing related to the grammar? To the pronounciation? To the number/order This. of the words? To one particular word out of the 8? To the meaning of the words? Any double/hidden meaning relevant? No.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2010 - 4:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If the name of the band was "The Gordon Highlanders Drums and Pipes", would you still find it unusual?
And what if you swapped "Pipes" and "Drums"?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2010 - 1:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If the name of the band was "The Gordon Highlanders Drums and Pipes", would you still find it unusual? No.
And what if you swapped "Pipes" and "Drums"? Yes. Good work. The typical term for a pipe band is "the pipes and drums", but the Gordons call it "the drums and pipes" instead. Why?
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2010 - 9:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is "drums and pipes" a typical expression in the military world? Do the Gordons call it that way because of a second meaning of one of the words, or of both of them?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2010 - 9:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is "drums and pipes" a typical expression in the military world? No, other military bands use "pipes and drums." Do the Gordons call it that way because of a second meaning of one of the words, or of both of them? No.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2010 - 9:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was there another "pipes and drums" band from the same regiment, so that they swapped the words in order to mark the difference?

The reason why they chose this unusual name, is it related to: the band itself? the regiment? the music style? the instruments they use? Is it a geographical reason? an historical one? political? religious?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2010 - 12:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was there another "pipes and drums" band from the same regiment, so that they swapped the words in order to mark the difference? No.

The reason why they chose this unusual name, is it related to: the band itself? the regiment? the music style? the instruments they use? This. Is it a geographical reason? an historical one? This. political? And this. religious?
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2010 - 2:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do they have more musician playing drums than pipes? Do they actually have musicians playing drums? Pipes? Other instruments?

Relevant the military grade of the musicians? Maybe drums are played by higher-grade soldiers?

Relevant when they formed? If so, LTFP list of centuries/decades? Any symbols/logos involved?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2010 - 9:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do they have more musician playing drums than pipes? Irr. Do they actually have musicians playing drums? Yes. Pipes? Yes. Other instruments? Irr.

Relevant the military grade of the musicians? No. Maybe drums are played by higher-grade soldiers? Irr.

Relevant when they formed? Yes. If so, LTFP list of centuries/decades? 1790s. Any symbols/logos involved? No.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2010 - 10:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the phrase "drums and pipes" used in the 1790s instead of "pipes and drums"?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2010 - 10:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the phrase "drums and pipes" used in the 1790s instead of "pipes and drums"?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 3:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the phrase "drums and pipes" used in the 1790s instead of "pipes and drums"? Not necessarily; just by this unit, I think.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 3:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You say politics is relevant...was the name used as a protest of some sort? A satire? In support?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 3:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You say politics is relevant...was the name used as a protest of some sort? A satire? In support? None of these.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 12:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they choose this name in order to: differentiate their band from something/someone else? emphasize something? send a message to someone? create a slogan? represent something/someone?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 2:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they choose this name in order to: differentiate their band from something/someone else? emphasize something? Close. send a message to someone? create a slogan? represent something/someone?
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 2:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have the feeling of turning around and coming back to the same point...

Did they want to emphasize their instruments? Their music? Their political "membership"?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 8:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they want to emphasize their instruments? This. Their music? Their political "membership"? The political aspect of their choice of words is minor, and reflects a state of society at the time they were raised.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2010 - 3:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the state of society chaotic? Horrific? Or is it a system of government we're trying to find?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2010 - 6:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the state of society chaotic? Horrific? Or is it a system of government we're trying to find? No to all.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2010 - 5:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What were they willing to emphasize about their instruments: their shape? quality? sound? price? model? decoration? color? material?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2010 - 5:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What were they willing to emphasize about their instruments: their shape? quality? sound? price? model? decoration? color? material? None of these.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, September 06, 2010 - 2:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they emphasizing a physical aspect of the instruments? How many instruments there are?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Monday, September 06, 2010 - 3:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they emphasizing a physical aspect of the instruments? No. How many instruments there are? No.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Monday, September 06, 2010 - 10:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they use a particular type of drums with respect to the other bands?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Monday, September 06, 2010 - 4:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they use a particular type of drums with respect to the other bands? A different kind? No, or irr.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Monday, September 06, 2010 - 5:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there anything relevant about their drums (that they are willing to emphasize), or we are on the wrong track?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Monday, September 06, 2010 - 7:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there anything relevant about their drums (that they are willing to emphasize), Yes. or we are on the wrong track? The drums themselves aren't all that important. The question is why they come ahead of the pipes, unlike in all other pipe bands?

As a hint, remember that Scottish nationalism was crushed a short time (well, fifty years) before the regiment was raised.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2010 - 12:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are drums (or pipes) more traditionally Scottish (English) instruments? Are they willing to affirm their Scottish nationalism by choosing this name?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2010 - 9:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are drums (or pipes) more traditionally Scottish (English) instruments? Pipes are the traditional Scottish instrument, while drums are common to all regiments regardless of country. Are they willing to affirm their Scottish nationalism by choosing this name? Not this.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2010 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, on the contrary, did they intend to affirm their support to English/British Crown, against any Scottish nationalism?

I guess I should know more about Scotland history to solve this easily...
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2010 - 3:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, on the contrary, did they intend to affirm their support to English/British Crown, against any Scottish nationalism? Something like this.

I guess I should know more about Scotland history to solve this easily... Well, it has to do with the status of pipes at the time, which you can probably guess at.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2010 - 3:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were pipes considered a "lower," secondary, or base instrument? When compared to drums?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2010 - 6:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were pipes considered a "lower," secondary Close!, or base instrument? Yes, in a sense. When compared to drums? Yes. Normally it's the other way around, but not at the time this occurred.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2010 - 1:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were drums considered a primary/"higher" instrument in England? So by naming themselves "the drums and pipes...", they were putting England ahead of Scotland?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2010 - 3:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were drums considered a primary/"higher" instrument in England? Yes, but... So by naming themselves "the drums and pipes...", they were putting England ahead of Scotland? The reason is much simpler than this.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2010 - 4:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So by putting the drums first, the band was showing their support of English rule? Of English rule over Scotland?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2010 - 2:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So by putting the drums first, the band was showing their support of English rule? Not as such. Hint: They had no choice. Of English rule over Scotland?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2010 - 3:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the English rule force them to put drums first? Would they have been arrested for putting pipes first, and thus, showing loyalty to Scotland?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2010 - 4:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the English rule force them to put drums first? Yes, in more ways than one. Would they have been arrested for putting pipes first, and thus, showing loyalty to Scotland? Hint: There are two meanings to the term "no choice."
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2010 - 4:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they not choose the name? Was the name given to them? By the English rule?

My brain's exhausted - I'm going to bed.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2010 - 12:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they not choose the name? Was the name given to them? By the English rule? Something like that. Hint: The name was initially different.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2010 - 12:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the name changed? By the English rule? From "pipes and drums" to "drums and pipes"?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2010 - 12:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the name changed? Yes. By the English rule? No. From "pipes and drums" to "drums and pipes"? No.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2010 - 4:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the original name include "Drums"? "Pipes"? Did they change the name? Under duress? From English loyalists?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2010 - 9:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the original name include "Drums"? Yes. "Pipes"? No. Did they change the name? Eventually. Under duress? No. From English loyalists?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2010 - 9:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So they changed their name to add "pipes," right? Were they originally forced to not include "pipes"?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2010 - 10:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So they changed their name to add "pipes," right? Eventually. Were they originally forced to not include "pipes"? Correct. Why?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2010 - 10:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Because they were a Scottish band? And to include "pipes" in their name would have been to show Scottish loyalty? So they had to settle for being "drums," or be duly punished?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2010 - 10:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Because they were a Scottish band? And to include "pipes" in their name would have been to show Scottish loyalty? The answer is simpler than this. So they had to settle for being "drums," or be duly punished?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2010 - 10:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they forced not to include "pipes" to show English loyalty? Whether or not the band was actually loyal to England?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2010 - 10:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they forced not to include "pipes" to show English loyalty? Still simpler. Hint: Why would they name the band after pipes and drums? Whether or not the band was actually loyal to England?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, September 10, 2010 - 12:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was naming the band after pipes and drums a Scottish tradition? A Scottish military tradition? But England would have none of that? So forced them to drop "pipes"?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Friday, September 10, 2010 - 3:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was naming the band after pipes and drums a Scottish tradition? A Scottish military tradition? But England would have none of that? So forced them to drop "pipes"?

You've had an FA for the last several questions. Break it and you'll have the puzzle solved.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Friday, September 10, 2010 - 3:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hint: You're focusing too much on the name.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Friday, September 10, 2010 - 9:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the band actually formed by Scottish people? Or were they English? Maybe because for some historical reason, at that moment the King only wanted English persons in the army?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Friday, September 10, 2010 - 12:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the band actually formed by Scottish people? Yes. Or were they English? Maybe because for some historical reason, at that moment the King only wanted English persons in the army? He only wanted English somethings.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Friday, September 10, 2010 - 12:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He only wanted English musicians? Instruments? Musical pieces? Names?

Is this something directly related to the band? To their instruments?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2010 - 4:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He only wanted English musicians? Instruments? This. Musical pieces? Names?

Is this something directly related to the band? To their instruments? This.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2010 - 6:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were drums considered principally an English instrument? While pipes were considered a Scottish one? So the king did not want a Scottish instrument in the band name?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2010 - 7:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were drums considered principally an English instrument? While pipes were considered a Scottish one? This. So the king did not want a Scottish instrument in the band name? Well, it wasn't in the band name for a much simpler reason than that.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2010 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they not insert a Scottish instrument in the band name to show loyalty to England? Because they knew they would be arrested or something if they had a Scottish instrument in the band name?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2010 - 3:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they not insert a Scottish instrument in the band name to show loyalty to England? Yes, meaning? Because they knew they would be arrested or something if they had a Scottish instrument in the band name? Yes, because?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2010 - 4:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Loyalty...to the English cause? Was it illegal to show loyalty to Scotland? So they could not insert "pipes" in the band name?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2010 - 4:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Loyalty...to the English cause? Yesss... Was it illegal to show loyalty to Scotland? Yes. So they could not insert "pipes" in the band name? Because....?

You're completely ignoring something that's quite important. I won't call it a false assumption because it's more of a correct assumption that you are failing to make at all.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2010 - 2:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Because England, at the time, had rule over Scotland? Was trying to take rule from Scotland? Was trying to suppress a Scottish rebellion? Or other revolutionary group trying to retake the throne?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2010 - 10:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Because England, at the time, had rule over Scotland? Was trying to take rule from Scotland? Was trying to suppress a Scottish rebellion? Was trying to prevent another one. Or other revolutionary group trying to retake the throne?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, September 13, 2010 - 1:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So by putting "pipes" in the band name, they would have been seen as supporting this upcoming rebellion? So they had to use only "drums"?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Monday, September 13, 2010 - 2:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So by putting "pipes" in the band name, they would have been seen as supporting this upcoming rebellion? So they had to use only "drums"? Hint: Stop concentrating on the name.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, September 13, 2010 - 1:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they not allowed to even have pipes in the band?
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Posted on Monday, September 13, 2010 - 9:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they not allowed to even have pipes in the band? Correct! How did this influence the name and its eventual change?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, September 13, 2010 - 9:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So the name, at first, would have just included "drums," correct? But later, they were allowed to have pipes? So they included "pipes" in the name? Did they keep "drums" first as a reminder of the past?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Monday, September 13, 2010 - 11:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So the name, at first, would have just included "drums," correct? Yes. But later, they were allowed to have pipes? Yes. So they included "pipes" in the name? Yes. Did they keep "drums" first as a reminder of the past? Something like that, but there's a simpler reason.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2010 - 12:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they forced to keep "drums" first?
Ixoye724 (Ixoye724)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2010 - 3:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Any kind of pipes? Bagpipes?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2010 - 12:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they forced to keep "drums" first? No.

Any kind of pipes? Bagpipes? This.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2010 - 3:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they put "pipes" second to show that it was a later addition to the group?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2010 - 9:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they put "pipes" second to show that it was a later addition to the group? Got it.

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Wailing Spoiler

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At the time when most Highland regiments were first raised, pipes, kilts and other Scottish traditions were banned. Eventually these restrictions were relaxed, partly as a recruiting gimmick. The musicians of the Gordon Highlanders got permission to play the pipes only after they had already used drums for several years. So, as the drums were "senior," they came first in the name of the band. For this reason, the Gordons maintain the tradition of referring to their bands as the "drums and pipes" rather than the more usual "pipes and drums."

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