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It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Post Number: 521
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Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 2:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If there had been fewer people around, she wouldn't have been killed.

She = HAF
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 2:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This sounds familiar.
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 3608
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Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 2:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is she some kind of wonderful, yes she is, she is?

But seriously...

Is her cause of death relevant? Was she murdered? Killed accidentally? Suicide? Did the "more people" cause her death? Directly? Indirectly? People: Adults? Children? Teens? Mixed? Male? Female? Mixed?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 3:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This sounds familiar. The puzzle itself? It's not anything I've heard before, but that doesn't mean it's not out there!

Is she some kind of wonderful, yes she is, she is? I'm talkin, talkin bout my baby...

But seriously...

Is her cause of death relevant? yes-ish
Was she murdered? yes
Killed accidentally? Suicide? Did the "more people" cause her death? Directly? not directly Indirectly? yope
People: Adults? Children? Teens? Mixed? Male? Female? Mixed? Don't know exactly, probably a mix of everyone
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 3610
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Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 4:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the murderer HAM? HAF? Part of the group of people? Was the cause of death [LTPF lists of untimely deaths]? Were the people witnesses to the crime? Did they prevent her from fleeing from the killer? Location relevant? Were they indoors? Outdoors? In a public place? A public building? A theater?
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Post Number: 101
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Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 7:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the title relevant? Did the people witness the crime?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 3129
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Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 9:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were the people a crowd? Did the murderer use the crowd to: get close to the victim? Escape afterwards?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Post Number: 524
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Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 1:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the murderer HAM? this HAF? Part of the group of people? yope
Was the cause of death [LTPF lists of untimely deaths]? Stabbing
Were the people witnesses to the crime? yes
Did they prevent her from fleeing from the killer? no
Location relevant? sort of
Were they indoors? yes, some Outdoors? yes, some In a public place? yes, some
A public building? no A theater? no

Is the title relevant? only somewhat
Did the people witness the crime? yes, and that is pretty much the extent of the title's relevance.

Were the people a crowd? not really, if by crowd you mean people all pushed close together
Did the murderer use the crowd to: get close to the victim? Escape afterwards? no to both
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 3138
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Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 2:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was she killed outside? In a public place? In a building? If there were fewer people: would the murder not have been attempted? Would someone have stopped it? would the victim have been able to get away? Or defend herself? Or would she not have been there in the first place? Did she die immedietely? Or could she have been saved if she had gotten medical help? Did this happen in modern times?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Post Number: 528
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Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 2:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was she killed outside? yes
In a public place? yes
In a building? no
If there were fewer people: would the murder not have been attempted? It would have still been attempted
Would someone have stopped it? yes!
would the victim have been able to get away? only because of the above
Or defend herself? no
Or would she not have been there in the first place? she would have been there
Did she die immedietely? yope
Or could she have been saved if she had gotten medical help? no, not exactly
Did this happen in modern times? yes
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 3140
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Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 2:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Possible spoiler emailed.
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Post Number: 529
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Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 3:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Possible $poiler emailed. Correct! Good job.
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 3:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cool. Sorry about using the s-word...
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Post Number: 531
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Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 3:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeah, you need to watch your language, Galfisk. ;)
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 6:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there anything relevant about her? If so;

Background?
Family?
Education?
Job?
Hobbies?
Friends?
Health?
Physical appearance?

Is it relevant why all those people were gathered at this location?

You said location was sort of releant. Does this mean geographical location? Continent? Country? City? or type of location?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Post Number: 533
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Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 2:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there anything relevant about her? no, actually If so;

Background?
Family?
Education?
Job?
Hobbies?
Friends?
Health?
Physical appearance?

Is it relevant why all those people were gathered at this location? no

You said location was sort of relevant. Does this mean geographical location? Continent? Country? City? or type of location? this one. This is a true story, and I'll go ahead and tell you it happened in the USA, but the only thing of some amount of relevance is the type of location.
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 3619
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Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 5:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was she in a park? Stadium? Is the weather relevant?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Post Number: 543
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Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 7:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was she in a park? Stadium? Is the weather relevant? no to all
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 3624
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Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 7:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You say some of the people were inside and some were outside...were they moving from inside to out? Out to in? Or were they staying inside/outside?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Post Number: 547
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Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2010 - 4:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You say some of the people were inside and some were outside...were they moving from inside to out? Out to in? Or were they staying inside/outside? Most of them were probably staying where they were, although conceivably some might have moved (especially in to out). From what I understand of the story, most were inside.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2010 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the murderer inside? Outside? Was the victim inside? Outside? Did the murderer directly stab the victim? Or was some sort of mechanism triggered which killed her? Is the specific weapon relevant?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 3:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the murderer inside? Outside? this
Was the victim inside? Outside? this
Did the murderer directly stab the victim? yes
Or was some sort of mechanism triggered which killed her? no Is the specific weapon relevant? no
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 4:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could the people see the murder? Are windows relevant? Could they see outside? But not the murder? If there were more people, would they have been able to see the murder? See outside?
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2010 - 9:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the people stop (unintentionally) some external force or agent to help the victim? Like blocking a police car or an ambulance? The event took place within a city? Rural area? Some kind of festival or celebration relevant? Near a church? The people standing by were all of the same profession? Did they have a hobby in common? A religious belief?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Post Number: 555
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Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2010 - 3:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could the people see the murder? yes
Are windows relevant? yes, in that...
Could they see outside? ...this is true
But not the murder? they could see the murder
If there were more people, would they have been able to see the murder? See outside? they could see both

Did the people stop (unintentionally) some external force or agent to help the victim? hm, yope
Like blocking a police car or an ambulance? not like this
The event took place within a city? yes Rural area? Some kind of festival or celebration relevant? no Near a church? no
The people standing by were all of the same profession? no Did they have a hobby in common? no A religious belief? no
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 3754
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Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2010 - 4:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Had there been more people, would it have been daytime? Rather than night? And they would not have been able to see? Did this take place in [LTPF list of centuries]? On [LTPF list of continents]?
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2010 - 8:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were people merely watching what happened or was any attempt to rescue her? Would have been if fewer people were around? Were the people in a restaurant or similar? Was the victim (and consequently the murderer) on the street? Is it relevant to the solution if we differentiate the type of killing (like, for example, stabbing as opposed to sniper shooting from a rooftop one block away?) Would the outcome be the same? (i.e., if there had been fewer people around, she wouldn't have been killed)
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Post Number: 557
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Posted on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 2:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Had there been more people, would it have been daytime? Rather than night? It already was daytime!
And they would not have been able to see?
Did this take place in [LTPF list of centuries]? On [LTPF list of continents]? In the US, 20th century

Were people merely watching what happened or was any attempt to rescue her? They were all merely watching!
Would have been if fewer people were around? Yes!
Were the people in a restaurant or similar? no
Was the victim (and consequently the murderer) on the street? yes
Is it relevant to the solution if we differentiate the type of killing (like, for example, stabbing as opposed to sniper shooting from a rooftop one block away?) Would the outcome be the same? (i.e., if there had been fewer people around, she wouldn't have been killed) It's pretty relevant that it was a stabbing. If it were a gun (especially a sniper) it probably wouldn't have made a difference

Good Q's!
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 3:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the street a main street? Side street? Were the other people in a place of business? A restaurant? Did they think it was a reenactment? Did they react to the murder? See the murder? Realize it was a murder?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Post Number: 559
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Posted on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 3:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the street a main street? Side street? irrel
Were the other people in a place of business? no A restaurant? no
Did they think it was a reenactment? no
Did they react to the murder? well, not like they should!
See the murder? Realize it was a murder? yes to both
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 3814
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Posted on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 3:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they react pleasantly to the murder? Did they cheer? Did they want the woman to die? Is mistaken identity relevant?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2010 - 4:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they react pleasantly to the murder? Did they cheer? Did they want the woman to die? Is mistaken identity relevant? no to all
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2010 - 1:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So they reacted to the murder, right? But not horrified, correct? Did they laugh?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2010 - 4:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So they reacted to the murder, right? well, not exactly...
But not horrified, correct? they might have been horrified
Did they laugh? no
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2010 - 4:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they afraid? Too afraid to act? Did they realize what was going on? Did anyone try to stop the murder? Stop the villain from fleeing? Call the police?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2010 - 3:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they afraid? quite possibly, but irrelevant
Too afraid to act? no
Did they realize what was going on? yes, or for the most part
Did anyone try to stop the murder? Stop the villain from fleeing? Call the police? no to all (and just for interest sake, this mystified those who later heard about the incident, but the explanation is indeed lateral)
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2010 - 4:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they able to stop the murder? Physically able? Were they unable to even move? Was it possible for them to stop the murder? Stop the villain from fleeing? Call the police?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 5:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they able to stop the murder? yes
Physically able? no, or irrel
Were they unable to even move? they could move
Was it possible for them to stop the murder? yes
Stop the villain from fleeing? well...
Call the police? yes, and this is the important thing.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So they did not call the police? Or did they? And the police were unable to arrive? Did they not call the police because they thought the murder was justified? Self-defense? Did they think the woman had committed a crime? That the killer had killed her in a struggle? Call the police - on a cell phone? A pay phone? A landline phone?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 3:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So they did not call the police? no they did not, but they could have
Or did they?
And the police were unable to arrive? they could have arrived in time to stop the murder
Did they not call the police because they thought the murder was justified? no, or probably not
Self-defense? no
Did they think the woman had committed a crime? no or irrelevant
That the killer had killed her in a struggle? well, there was a struggle...
Call the police - on a cell phone? A pay phone? A landline phone? Any of these. Although I don't think they would have had cell phones at this time.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 4:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they see the struggle? Did they think the struggle was staged? Part of a show? Did they realize it was an actual struggle? Were they afraid of what would happen if they got involved? That the killer would kill them?
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 6:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did everyone think someone else was going to take care of it? But if there were fewer people, then it would have been clear that no one was helping?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Posted on Friday, September 17, 2010 - 1:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they see the struggle? yes
Did they think the struggle was staged? no
Part of a show? no
Did they realize it was an actual struggle? yes
Were they afraid of what would happen if they got involved? no
That the killer would kill them? no

Did everyone think someone else was going to take care of it? YES!!!
But if there were fewer people, then it would have been clear that no one was helping? exactly!

*******SPOILER*******

The killing was one of the most infamous incidents in New York City history. It was the 1964 stabbing death of a young Queens woman named Kitty Genovese. She was chased by her assailant and attacked three times on the street, over the course of half an hour, as thirty-eight of her neighbors watched from their windows. However, none of the 38 people called the police.

For years, this case was assumed to be indicative of the cold, dehumanizing effect of urban city life. Later on however, some studies were done that suggested another explanation. I will quote from The Tipping Point, an excellent book about social and cultural behavior:

"When people are in a group...responsibility for acting is diffused. They assume that someone else will make the call, or they assume that because no one else is acting, the apparent problem...isn't really a problem. In the case of Kitty Genovese, then...the lesson is not that no one called despite the fact that thirty-eight people heard her scream; it's that no one called because thirty-eight people heard her scream. Ironically, had she been attacked on a lonely street with just one witness, she might have lived."


Thanks to all who participated. Thanks, Balin, for all the good questions and groundwork, and Noel for the stroke of genius that led to the solve.

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