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Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 1914
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Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 10:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It's surprisingly low. But not that low!
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 10:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this puzzle rated 18?

Low as in not far from the ground? A musical note? low as in standards of behaviour? sense of humour?

It's not your batting average is it;O)
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 10:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this puzzle rated 18? Hehe, not at all! It's a U-rated puzzle, fun for all the family.

Low as in not far from the ground? A musical note? yes, we're talking about pitch low as in standards of behaviour? sense of humour? no to rest

It's not your batting average is it;O) if my batting average were over 18, I'd be a very happy worm.
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 12:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A singing voice? a musical instrument? A whistle of some sort?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 12:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A singing voice? no a musical instrument? musical instruments are relevant, yes A whistle of some sort? not this, though
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 1:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is a certain instrument relevant? A song?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 1921
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Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 1:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is a certain instrument relevant? yes A song? for svv of song, yes
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 2:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are there any relevant people? 1? less than 5? less than 10? less than 100?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are there any relevant people? 1? less than 5? less than 10? less than 100? There are millions of people for whom this is relevant. One is more obviously central to the narrative.
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 3:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the one central person a composer? musician? would it be cheating to invoke the LTPF list of musical instruments?

Could the millions of other people be described as fans? listeners? live audience? supporters?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 4:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the instrument a stringed instrument? Woodwind? Brass? Percussion? Is it a piano? Guitar? Or is it something that would not normally be thought of as an instrument? Is autotuning relevant? Is the "song" a recording? A live version?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 4:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the one central person a composer? this was the central person I had in mind musician? would it be cheating to invoke the LTPF list of musical instruments? several are relevant, but we're talking primarily about a trombone

Could the millions of other people be described as fans? listeners? live audience? supporters? they could be any of the above, but there are many more people for whom the circumstances of the puzzle are crucially important
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 1924
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Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 4:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the instrument a stringed instrument? Woodwind? Brass? several types of brass instrument are worth exploring, in addition to the trombone Percussion? Is it a piano? Guitar? Or is it something that would not normally be thought of as an instrument?

Is autotuning relevant? hehe, no Is the "song" a recording? A live version? it could be either, and it doesn't matter which
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 9:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it the lowest possible pitch on a trombone? Is there a way to make the pitch even lower?

Other brass instruments: saxophone (which I know can be considered woodwind)? Tuba? Sousaphone? Bugle? French horn? English horn? Bronze lur?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 10:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it the lowest possible pitch on a trombone? nothing to do with this, but nice thinking Is there a way to make the pitch even lower? I'm sure there is, but I'm not a trombonist, so I wouldn't know. I once saw a video of a Maurizio Kagel piece in which he played the trombone with his foot. But it isn't this.

Other brass instruments: saxophone (which I know can be considered woodwind)? it can, but it's not this Tuba? yes indeed, but tread carefully Sousaphone? no Bugle? actually, this is not far from the right forest French horn? no English horn? no, this is definitely woodwind Bronze lur? haha, a guess out of leftfield ... but not actually altogether silly, as you will see ...
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 10:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are brass instruments always made out of brass? Or other metals? Is the method of changing pitch relevant? By changing lip position? Valves? Slide? Another brass instrument: trumpet?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 10:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are brass instruments always made out of brass? no ...

Or other metals? ... they can be made of various metals. Or even nonmetals. Is the method of changing pitch relevant? By changing lip position? Valves? Slide? Hmmm ... I had to think about this, but let's presume no or no-ish.

Another brass instrument: trumpet? Yes, this also plays its part. You now have all the instruments you need for this gig ... er, puzzle.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 12:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is a brass band relevant? A marching band? Any type of band? Calling reveille relevant?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 5:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is music actually played? Is it directly heard by anyone? Is it a signal?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the relevant millions of people all of the same nationality? religeon?

Does one need a great knowledge of music to solve this?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 10:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is a brass band relevant? no A marching band? no Any type of band? no Calling reveille relevant? nice, but no

Is music actually played? yes Is it directly heard by anyone? yes, but it's the composition that's relevant, not a specific performance Is it a signal? no

Are the relevant millions of people all of the same nationality? no religeon? yes, this is something of significance to Christians in particular

Does one need a great knowledge of music to solve this? no technical knowledge required
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 12:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the "song" a hymn? Is it played at funerals?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 12:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the "song" a hymn? not quite, no ... Is it played at funerals? ... but you're on the right lines with this
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 3:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Taps"?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 3:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Taps"? no
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 3:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Trumpet of Krakow?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 4:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

...which should read TrumpetER of Krakow. My bad.
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Trumpeter of Krakow? no
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 4:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the song a Christmas song? Is any other holiday relevant?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 4:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the song a Christmas song? no, it isn't Is any other holiday relevant? not especially, no
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 4:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You said it was "svv of song" - is it a scale? A warm-up exercise? Tuning the instrument?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 4:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You said it was "svv of song" - is it a scale? no A warm-up exercise? no Tuning the instrument? nothing like this
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 4:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it only played on brass instruments? Is it sung along to? Am I way OTWT here?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it only played on brass instruments? no Is it sung along to? yes indeed Am I way OTWT here? not at all

A quick recap:

It's surprisingly low, but not that low. We're talking about the use of a trombone in a piece of music. The trumpet and tuba are also relevant, as is Christianity.


Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 7:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the piece of music part of a longer piece? Like the Hallelujah Chorus from Handel's "Messiah"?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 8:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the piece of music part of a longer piece? it is indeed Like the Hallelujah Chorus from Handel's "Messiah"? well ... 'Messiah' is not the piece featuring the trombone, nor is the Hallelujah chorus relevant. But 'Messiah' is definitely in the right ballpark, and it actually appears in the solution. Now then ...
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 8:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are we looking for another oratorio? An opera?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 8:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are we looking for another oratorio? An opera? Neither, but something not dissimilar. I wouldn't abandon 'Messiah' just yet, either.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 8:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Something sung by a choir?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 8:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Something sung by a choir? If you mean the item featuring the trombone ... yes and no
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 9:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there a separate trombone section and sung section?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 9:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there a separate trombone section and sung section? hmmm ... no, not really
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 10:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So the singing and trombone-ing are performed at the same time?

Could you please recap?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Friday, September 17, 2010 - 9:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So the singing and trombone-ing are performed at the same time? not really relevant

Could you please recap? again? ok:

There's a trombone in a particular piece of choral music. To solve the puzzle, you'll need to find out why it might sound surprisingly low, but not that low. We've established that trumpets, tubas, Messiah and Christian beliefs are all involved in some way. Technical musical knowledge isn't needed.

Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, September 17, 2010 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are trumpets and/or tubas played in the piece? Is it another of Handel's compositions?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Sunday, September 19, 2010 - 4:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are trumpets and/or tubas played in the piece? The work itself contains two trumpets in D, and no tubas at all. This isn't significant at all, though.


Is it another of Handel's compositions? No: the piece I have in mind is no less famous than Messiah, and was written about fifty years later. It might help slightly if you guessed it, but you can certainly work out the gist of the puzzle without knowing exactly which piece it is.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 1:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it sound low because the vocal pitch is high? The trumpet pitch is high? So the trombone sounds low by comparison?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 2:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it sound low because the vocal pitch is high? not this but ... The trumpet pitch is high? this is very much along the right lines So the trombone sounds low by comparison? yes indeed ... this idea is worth exploring
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 4:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the trumpet only play high notes in the piece? Does it play notes higher than its typical range? Is the trumpet modified in any way? Is the trombone?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 4:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the trumpet only play high notes in the piece? Does it play notes higher than its typical range? Is the trumpet modified in any way? Is the trombone? none of these, I'm afraid
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the trombone only play low notes in the piece?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 9:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the trombone only play low notes in the piece? no, nothing like this: all that matters is that it's a trombone
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 9:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a normal trombone? Is its mute in?

Shot in the dark: Mad Trombonist urban legend relevant?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 9:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a normal trombone? yes Is its mute in? no, and irrel

Shot in the dark: Mad Trombonist urban legend relevant? Haha! Another new one on me, duly googled. I really, really wish this was the answer :-)
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 9:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ohhh...you have to watch the MythBusters' test (and retest) of it. Lots of big booms.

Is the person playing the trombone relevant? Is there only the one trombone? Or more than one? Does it hold a sustained note? A few sustained notes? A lot of them? Is the trombone in tune? Is the slide properly oiled?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 9:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the person playing the trombone relevant? no Is there only the one trombone? actually three in the whole score, but ... Or more than one? ... just the one playing at the relevant moment, and it's more useful to think of just the one

Does it hold a sustained note? A few sustained notes? A lot of them? Is the trombone in tune? Is the slide properly oiled? nope, all these are technical matters about the playing of the trombone, which aren't important. All that matters is that it is a trombone. Which, for some, might be surprising.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 9:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would other brass instruments not work for this? Does the trombone merely sound low when contrasted with the higher pitches of the trumpets?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 10:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would other brass instruments not work for this? No: trumpet, trombone and tuba are all you need. A serpent would have been fun, but hey.

Does the trombone merely sound low when contrasted with the higher pitches of the trumpets? yes, exactly this ... but there may be a teeny FA here, depending on how you're thinking
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 10:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would the tuba sound extremely low? So the trombone would sound low compared to the trumpets, but not THAT low when you account for the tuba?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 10:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would the tuba sound extremely low? it would, yes So the trombone would sound low compared to the trumpets, but not THAT low when you account for the tuba? yes, that's what I meant by 'not that low'
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2010 - 3:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So what's left to find out?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2010 - 9:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So what's left to find out? Er ... pretty much everything.

Mainly: why a trombone? And why would some people be surprised to hear it? And what have the Messiah, Christianity, trumpets and tubas got to do with it?
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2010 - 11:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wild guess: does the title refer to the devil? Does the song refer to the apocalypse? Angels blowing trumpets and the second coming of the Lord?
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Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2010 - 12:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wild guess the wild guesses are often the bestest ... see below

does the title refer to the devil? no, but ...

Does the song refer to the apocalypse? yes! most certainly Angels blowing trumpets and the second coming of the Lord? yes, absolutely! now then ...

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Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2010 - 1:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it relevant that the tuba had not been yet invented by the time the music was composed (if I am not mistaken)? Was the trombone the lowest pitched instrument available? Maybe not familiar to certain people?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Is it relevant that the tuba had not been yet invented by the time the music was composed (if I am not mistaken)? you're dead right, but this isn't the relevant reason

Was the trombone the lowest pitched instrument available? it may have been, but this isn't the reason it was used

Maybe not familiar to certain people? not this either: the trombone itself was familiar, but some people would still be surprised to hear it ...
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Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2010 - 1:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was this by any chance Mozart's Requiem?
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Was this by any chance Mozart's Requiem? It was indeed! Incidentally, 'dirty-minded creature' was what Salieri called Mozart in the movie Amadeus. Should be easy to solve from here ...
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Hmm, I don't see it coming, yet... Is it relevant that Mozart wrote only some parts of the work and others did the rest? Maybe using a trombone in a way Mozart wouldn't use it? So it sounded surprisingly low for a Mozart part? If I recollect well, some parts of Mozart's original work were used as source of inspiration for some other parts of the finished product.
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Hmm, I don't see it coming, yet... It will ... Is it relevant that Mozart wrote only some parts of the work and others did the rest? no

Maybe using a trombone in a way Mozart wouldn't use it? no, it isn't this So it sounded surprisingly low for a Mozart part? not this either

If I recollect well, some parts of Mozart's original work were used as source of inspiration for some other parts of the finished product. true, but not the answer. You've pretty much arrived at the lateral-ish part.
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Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2010 - 2:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just to make sure: it sounded surprinsingly low as in low pitch, not of a surprinsingly low quality, correct?

Are we looking to determine while the composer chose the trombone or why the people were surprised such an option has been taken? Both?

Did the trombone sounded surprinsingly low for what it was trying to express through music (along the lines of, say, the angels using pan flutes instead of trumpets, for example)? The people were surprised hearing the sound: they considered it odd? Or just interesting? The trombone sounded low because the played notes were lower in scale (so it has something to do with the actual work), or it would have sounded low anyway, regardless of the notes in themselves, the only important thing being the fact that they were played by a trombone (which cannot get to the high pitched sounds of a trumpet)?
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Just to make sure: it sounded surprinsingly low as in low pitch, not of a surprinsingly low quality, correct? correct

Are we looking to determine while the composer chose the trombone or why the people were surprised such an option has been taken? Both? Yes, both!

Did the trombone sounded surprinsingly low for what it was trying to express through music (along the lines of, say, the angels using pan flutes instead of trumpets, for example)? yes, this is closest

The people were surprised hearing the sound: they considered it odd? they might consider it a bit unusual, certainly ... a bit of a puzzle, even

{Or just interesting? and perhaps this, too

The trombone sounded low because the played notes were lower in scale (so it has something to do with the actual work), not this, but ... or it would have sounded low anyway, regardless of the notes in themselves, the only important thing being the fact that they were played by a trombone (which cannot get to the high pitched sounds of a trumpet)? this: some may be surprised that it was a trombone rather than a trumpet (regardless of the actual notes)
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2010 - 3:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was a trombone simply considered low for a requiem?

Incidentally, I don't know Mozart's Requiem, but I do have a certain Falco song running on repeat in my head now.
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Was a trombone simply considered low for a requiem? no
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Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2010 - 4:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could the composer decision be considered an 'innovation' or an 'experiment' in the field of music? Did he do it for purely musical purposes, or was his rationale something like: composing for a friend who played the trombone? In rememberance for such a friend? Fullfiling a promise? A bet? ('I bet you cannot put the voice of archangel Michael on a trombone' - 'Just watch me'). Incidentally, was the trombone played as part of the angels' chorus?
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Could the composer decision be considered an 'innovation' or an 'experiment' in the field of music? Not really: it wasn't even the first trombone used in a requiem, and only some people might find it surprising.

Did he do it for purely musical purposes well, he must have liked the deep sonority, but there's another, more lateral, reason

, or was his rationale something like: composing for a friend who played the trombone? nice idea and very possible, but not the reason I'm looking for

In rememberance for such a friend? noFullfiling a promise? not that I know of A bet? ('I bet you cannot put the voice of archangel Michael on a trombone' - 'Just watch me'). Hahah! No, but a lovely idea

Incidentally, was the trombone played as part of the angels' chorus? not quite, but plenty close enough: the trombone represented the trumpet played by the angel in the Last Judgement. That's why some might find it surprising. Now we just need the (lateral-ish) reason. And, to complete the puzzle, perhaps find out where tubas come into play.
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Hmmm, I thought we were past the not-yet-invented tubas. Was it relevant that the sentiment of surprise came about later, after the people had a chance to hear the tubas? Is orchestration relevant? Was it another instrument, like the serpent, relevant instead of tuba?
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Hmmm, I thought we were past the not-yet-invented tubas. Hehe. Well, you can solve the trumpet/trombone issue without worrying too much about tubas ...

Was it relevant that the sentiment of surprise came about later, after the people had a chance to hear the tubas? No, nothing like this. It's simply that some people (then and now) might be surprised to hear the Last Trumpet represented by a trombone.

Is orchestration relevant? no, other than what you already know Was it another instrument, like the serpent, relevant instead of tuba? no
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Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2010 - 6:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant the text from the Book of Revelation? "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." And the people wondered how this can be represented by the sound of a trombone?
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Never mind the last post... We only needed to concentrate on why the trombone was chosen. Incidentally ... something in the Book of Revelation brought about the idea?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2010 - 6:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant the text from the Book of Revelation? "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." And the people wondered how this can be represented by the sound of a trombone? Well, the trombone represents the Last Trumpet, not necessarily all the other stuff! But the Bible is certainly relevant ...

Never mind the last post ... hahah, any pun intended? We only needed to concentrate on why the trombone was chosen. Incidentally ... something in the Book of Revelation brought about the idea? well, there are lots of relevant trumpets in Revelation, and Paul mentions the trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52:

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
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Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2010 - 8:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it chosen to represent the destruction at the end times? The low spirit of the people?
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Was it chosen to represent the destruction at the end times? The low spirit of the people? perhaps a little of both, but there's a simpler reason
Balin (Balin)
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Does the trombone "clash" with the other trumpets? Thus distinguishing it as the Last Trumpet?
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Does the trombone "clash" with the other trumpets? Thus distinguishing it as the Last Trumpet? As usual, your guesses are a lot more fun than the real answer ... but no.

I wish I could say that the last trumpeter had been eaten by a pantomime dog, so the trombonist had to stand in. :-)
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Did you mean 1 Corinthians 15:32 or 1 Corinthians 13:1? "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal" Am I OTRT here or just swimming around?
Balin (Balin)
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Are the actions when the Last Trumpet is blown relevant? (In Revelation, that is, not the trombone.)

And with the "pantomime dog" (hee hee), you're quite close on that one.
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2010 - 9:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you mean 1 Corinthians 15:32 or 1 Corinthians 13:1? "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal" Am I OTRT here or just swimming around? Swimming around, I'm afraid. But a neat link, and it made me think of Brahms ... so it's all good

Are the actions when the Last Trumpet is blown relevant? (In Revelation, that is, not the trombone.) Arrrgh, no! The details of Revelation are way too complicated. If you go down that route, we'll be here till Kingdom come.
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Were they simply out of trumpets?
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Were they simply out of trumpets? Heheh ... no
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Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2010 - 9:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, let's approach it more seriously: Was the decision based -- or inspired -- by some verse in the Bible? Did the author believe that a lower pitch was more appropriate for the rendition of the idea expressed by said verse? Was the OT involved (maybe the Psalms, or Leviticus)?
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Ok, let's approach it more seriously: Was the decision based -- or inspired -- by some verse in the Bible? strictly yes, but this may mislead Did the author believe that a lower pitch was more appropriate for the rendition of the idea expressed by said verse? Mozart may have thought that a trombone conveyed the idea more suitably... but there is another reason still to be discovered

Was the OT involved (maybe the Psalms, or Leviticus)? No. Stick to the NT.
Balin (Balin)
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Are we looking for something in the Gospels? Acts? Paul's letters? Other letters? Revelation?
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Are we looking for something in the Gospels? Acts? Paul's letters? Other letters? Revelation? Corinthians and Revelation, certainly. But you don't need to find any more Biblical references. You have all the ones you need.
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Since this is a requiem, is the trombone representative of the dead? Of the dead being raised?
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Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2010 - 10:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Since this is a requiem, is the trombone representative of the dead? Of the dead being raised? well, of the Last Trumpet scattering its sounds amongst the tombs of the dead ...
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Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2010 - 8:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Mozart trying to convey the idea: of something descending from the heaven? Of the great dragon being cast down? Of the final battle between the angels and the demons? Of the resurrection of the dead? And from a yet to be determined lateralish reason, he decided to use the trombone?

About the tuba part: Is the connection simply the fact that the Latin for trumpet is tuba?
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Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2010 - 8:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Another idea: was the conveyed idea that of people staying humbly before the Lord? So the final trumpet is not considered one of war, but one of judgement?

I assume we are talking of the part of the requiem that contains Dies Irae?

Hopefully something will come out of these 2 posts, otherwise I start to believe that I will find the elusive reason after the seven trumpet will sound, by asking Mozart directly!
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Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2010 - 9:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Mozart trying to convey the idea: of something descending from the heaven? Of the great dragon being cast down? Of the final battle between the angels and the demons? Of the resurrection of the dead? perhaps all of these, but not relevant

And from a yet to be determined lateralish reason, he decided to use the trombone? yes

About the tuba part: Is the connection simply the fact that the Latin for trumpet is tuba? YES! ... exactly. Perhaps explore further ...

Another idea: was the conveyed idea that of people staying humbly before the Lord? So the final trumpet is not considered one of war, but one of judgement? no: it's something far simpler than this

I assume we are talking of the part of the requiem that contains Dies Irae? yes we are: the Tuba mirum section

Hopefully something will come out of these 2 posts, otherwise I start to believe that I will find the elusive reason after the seven trumpet will sound, by asking Mozart directly! hehe ... and then we will all proceed to Lateral Limbo :-)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2010 - 9:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, Mozart chose to use a trombone for two reasons:
1. Because it conveyed the idea (whatever that was) more suitably
2. For another, lateralish, reason

Correct so far?
Apart from #2 above, is there anything else to be found?

Trying to get to that reason (#2): had it been invented already, would have Mozart been equally likely to use a tuba? is that reason connected with the low tones of a trombone, or has nothing to do with it, the 'low pitch' being covered by reason #1? if this is true, was the reason: that he personally liked the trombone? that the people hearing the first performance liked this instrument? disliked it? Was he (Mozart) trying to impress someone by this use of the trombone? Does the trombone in itself has any other attributes (other than the low pitch) that triggered his decision? Its name? Its shape? The Italian for trumpet relevant here? Is the text of Dies Irae relevant?
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So, Mozart chose to use a trombone for two reasons:
1. Because it conveyed the idea (whatever that was) more suitably
2. For another, lateralish, reason

Correct so far? yes, but it's only the second one that's relevant to the puzzle

Apart from #2 above, is there anything else to be found? no: this is the last piece, you'll be pleased to know!

Trying to get to that reason (#2): had it been invented already, would have Mozart been equally likely to use a tuba? no

is that reason connected with the low tones of a trombone no, but rather ..., or has nothing to do with it, the 'low pitch' being covered by reason #1? this

if this is true, was the reason: that he personally liked the trombone? no

that the people hearing the first performance liked this instrument? no
disliked it? no

Was he (Mozart) trying to impress someone by this use of the trombone? no

Does the trombone in itself has any other attributes (other than the low pitch) that triggered his decision? Its name? yes Its shape? no The Italian for trumpet relevant here? not really, but ... Is the text of Dies Irae relevant? only the relevant part: Tuba mirum spargens sonum

Getting really close now
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Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2010 - 10:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, the relation of the (name of the) trombone and the relevant part from Dies irae: is related to the sense of that phrase? Or is it an anagram of some sort involved?
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Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2010 - 10:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, the relation of the (name of the) trombone and the relevant part from Dies irae: is related to the sense of that phrase? not quite sure I understand the question, but ...

the Latin word tuba is relevant, and so is the name of the trombone


Or is it an anagram of some sort involved? no no, nothing like this
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Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2010 - 11:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What I meant was if the sense of the text ("The trumpet, scattering a wondrous sound") has a connection to the name of the trombone. Apparently it hasn't and only the word tuba is relevant? The name of the trombone: in Latin? in Italian? in German?
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Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2010 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What I meant was if the sense of the text ("The trumpet, scattering a wondrous sound") has a connection to the name of the trombone. Well, it has in a way ... see below

Apparently it hasn't and only the word tuba is relevant? The name of the trombone: in Latin? in Italian? in German? Yes! This one ... which incidentally is Posaune. Can you put everything together for the solution?
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If Goethe is involved, I might try... So: anything related to "Am jüngsten Tag, wenn die Posaunen schallen / Und alles aus ist mit dem Erdeleben," etc? Or am I starting again to swim around in circles? I don't even know if the sonnet was published at the time Mozart wrote his requiem...
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Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2010 - 3:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If Goethe is involved Well, he isn't, directly ... but it's another lovely example of the same idea, I might try... So: anything related to "Am jüngsten Tag, wenn die Posaunen schallen / Und alles aus ist mit dem Erdeleben," etc?

Or am I starting again to swim around in circles? I don't even know if the sonnet was published at the time Mozart wrote his requiem... I'd guess they were written at about the same time, and I don't know whether one directly influenced the other. Perhaps if you go back earlier, to a common linguistic ancestry ...
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2010 - 5:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it that in some medieval pictures the angels were playing the buisine (a sort of a trumpet), from which etymologically the Posaune derives?
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2010 - 5:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And to add to that: the buisine was a large trumpet (longer) and the trombone is nothing else (etymologically) than 'una grande tromba'. Correct? Relevant? Finish line?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2010 - 9:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I hope that's the finish line...thank you, Rbruma; I never would have come up with any of this.
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2010 - 1:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it that in some medieval pictures the angels were playing the buisine (a sort of a trumpet), from which etymologically the Posaune derives?

And to add to that: the buisine was a large trumpet (longer) and the trombone is nothing else (etymologically) than 'una grande tromba'. Correct? Relevant? Finish line? well, slightly overshooting the line and into the long grass, but plenty close enough for a:

**** SPOILER ****

The Bible, as we all know, is full of lurid predictions of the end of the world, heralded by multi-headed beasts, angels playing trumpets, and all that good stuff.

Or at least they're trumpets if you're an English speaker. If you're a German-speaking believer, you might not expect a Last Trumpet, but a Last Trombone.

In the Vulgate, it's 'novissima tuba' (nothing so low as a modern tuba, of course). In the King James Version, this is translated as 'last trumpet'. This is the version Handel followed in his trumpet solo from Messiah.

But Martin Luther, in his German Bible of 1534, translated it as 'die letzte Posaune'. He probably wanted a more Germanic word than 'Trompete', and at that time the words were more or less interchangeable. As Rbruma says, it probably just meant a long thin hunting-horn.

But the word 'Posaune' came to mean a trombone, and that's certainly what it meant in Mozart's time. So an English audience might find Mozart's famous trombone solo a bit puzzling ... or surprisingly low for a last trumpet. But a German audience would positively expect it.

Btw, I'd be intrigued to know what the Last Trumpet is in other languages.

In the New New Happy Bible, it might be Rolf Harris and the Last Stylophone.


Thanks to Balin and Rbruma for sticking with it, and for the wealth of additional info.
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2010 - 7:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmm, I missed the connection with Luther's translation, although I have it in my room but never (laterally) thought to check it. Thank you for this very interesting puzzle.

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