| Author | Message | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1914 Registered: 3-2006 |
It's surprisingly low. But not that low! | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2885 Registered: 1-2007 |
Is this puzzle rated 18? Low as in not far from the ground? A musical note? low as in standards of behaviour? sense of humour? It's not your batting average is it;O) | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1917 Registered: 3-2006 |
Is this puzzle rated 18? Hehe, not at all! It's a U-rated puzzle, fun for all the family. Low as in not far from the ground? A musical note? yes, we're talking about pitch low as in standards of behaviour? sense of humour? no to rest It's not your batting average is it;O) if my batting average were over 18, I'd be a very happy worm. | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2889 Registered: 1-2007 |
A singing voice? a musical instrument? A whistle of some sort? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1919 Registered: 3-2006 |
A singing voice? no a musical instrument? musical instruments are relevant, yes A whistle of some sort? not this, though | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4481 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is a certain instrument relevant? A song? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1921 Registered: 3-2006 |
Is a certain instrument relevant? yes A song? for svv of song, yes | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2890 Registered: 1-2007 |
Are there any relevant people? 1? less than 5? less than 10? less than 100? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1922 Registered: 3-2006 |
Are there any relevant people? 1? less than 5? less than 10? less than 100? There are millions of people for whom this is relevant. One is more obviously central to the narrative. | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2893 Registered: 1-2007 |
Is the one central person a composer? musician? would it be cheating to invoke the LTPF list of musical instruments? Could the millions of other people be described as fans? listeners? live audience? supporters? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4497 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is the instrument a stringed instrument? Woodwind? Brass? Percussion? Is it a piano? Guitar? Or is it something that would not normally be thought of as an instrument? Is autotuning relevant? Is the "song" a recording? A live version? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1923 Registered: 3-2006 |
Is the one central person a composer? this was the central person I had in mind musician? would it be cheating to invoke the LTPF list of musical instruments? several are relevant, but we're talking primarily about a trombone Could the millions of other people be described as fans? listeners? live audience? supporters? they could be any of the above, but there are many more people for whom the circumstances of the puzzle are crucially important | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1924 Registered: 3-2006 |
Is the instrument a stringed instrument? Woodwind? Brass? several types of brass instrument are worth exploring, in addition to the trombone Percussion? Is it a piano? Guitar? Or is it something that would not normally be thought of as an instrument? Is autotuning relevant? hehe, no Is the "song" a recording? A live version? it could be either, and it doesn't matter which | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4500 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is it the lowest possible pitch on a trombone? Is there a way to make the pitch even lower? Other brass instruments: saxophone (which I know can be considered woodwind)? Tuba? Sousaphone? Bugle? French horn? English horn? Bronze lur? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1925 Registered: 3-2006 |
Is it the lowest possible pitch on a trombone? nothing to do with this, but nice thinking Is there a way to make the pitch even lower? I'm sure there is, but I'm not a trombonist, so I wouldn't know. I once saw a video of a Maurizio Kagel piece in which he played the trombone with his foot. But it isn't this. Other brass instruments: saxophone (which I know can be considered woodwind)? it can, but it's not this Tuba? yes indeed, but tread carefully Sousaphone? no Bugle? actually, this is not far from the right forest French horn? no English horn? no, this is definitely woodwind Bronze lur? haha, a guess out of leftfield ... but not actually altogether silly, as you will see ... | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4510 Registered: 4-2010 |
Are brass instruments always made out of brass? Or other metals? Is the method of changing pitch relevant? By changing lip position? Valves? Slide? Another brass instrument: trumpet? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1926 Registered: 3-2006 |
Are brass instruments always made out of brass? no ... Or other metals? ... they can be made of various metals. Or even nonmetals. Is the method of changing pitch relevant? By changing lip position? Valves? Slide? Hmmm ... I had to think about this, but let's presume no or no-ish. Another brass instrument: trumpet? Yes, this also plays its part. You now have all the instruments you need for this gig ... er, puzzle. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4511 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is a brass band relevant? A marching band? Any type of band? Calling reveille relevant? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3650 Registered: 5-2003 |
Is music actually played? Is it directly heard by anyone? Is it a signal? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2894 Registered: 1-2007 |
Are the relevant millions of people all of the same nationality? religeon? Does one need a great knowledge of music to solve this? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1928 Registered: 3-2006 |
Is a brass band relevant? no A marching band? no Any type of band? no Calling reveille relevant? nice, but no Is music actually played? yes Is it directly heard by anyone? yes, but it's the composition that's relevant, not a specific performance Is it a signal? no Are the relevant millions of people all of the same nationality? no religeon? yes, this is something of significance to Christians in particular Does one need a great knowledge of music to solve this? no technical knowledge required | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4542 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is the "song" a hymn? Is it played at funerals? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1932 Registered: 3-2006 |
Is the "song" a hymn? not quite, no ... Is it played at funerals? ... but you're on the right lines with this | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4556 Registered: 4-2010 |
"Taps"? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1933 Registered: 3-2006 |
"Taps"? no | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4560 Registered: 4-2010 |
Trumpet of Krakow? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4561 Registered: 4-2010 |
...which should read TrumpetER of Krakow. My bad. | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1935 Registered: 3-2006 |
Trumpeter of Krakow? no | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4566 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is the song a Christmas song? Is any other holiday relevant? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1936 Registered: 3-2006 |
Is the song a Christmas song? no, it isn't Is any other holiday relevant? not especially, no | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4568 Registered: 4-2010 |
You said it was "svv of song" - is it a scale? A warm-up exercise? Tuning the instrument? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1937 Registered: 3-2006 |
You said it was "svv of song" - is it a scale? no A warm-up exercise? no Tuning the instrument? nothing like this | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4571 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is it only played on brass instruments? Is it sung along to? Am I way OTWT here? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1938 Registered: 3-2006 |
Is it only played on brass instruments? no Is it sung along to? yes indeed Am I way OTWT here? not at all A quick recap: It's surprisingly low, but not that low. We're talking about the use of a trombone in a piece of music. The trumpet and tuba are also relevant, as is Christianity. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4577 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is the piece of music part of a longer piece? Like the Hallelujah Chorus from Handel's "Messiah"? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1942 Registered: 3-2006 |
Is the piece of music part of a longer piece? it is indeed Like the Hallelujah Chorus from Handel's "Messiah"? well ... 'Messiah' is not the piece featuring the trombone, nor is the Hallelujah chorus relevant. But 'Messiah' is definitely in the right ballpark, and it actually appears in the solution. Now then ... | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4588 Registered: 4-2010 |
Are we looking for another oratorio? An opera? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1943 Registered: 3-2006 |
Are we looking for another oratorio? An opera? Neither, but something not dissimilar. I wouldn't abandon 'Messiah' just yet, either. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4592 Registered: 4-2010 |
Something sung by a choir? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1944 Registered: 3-2006 |
Something sung by a choir? If you mean the item featuring the trombone ... yes and no | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4596 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is there a separate trombone section and sung section? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1946 Registered: 3-2006 |
Is there a separate trombone section and sung section? hmmm ... no, not really | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4603 Registered: 4-2010 |
So the singing and trombone-ing are performed at the same time? Could you please recap? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1948 Registered: 3-2006 |
So the singing and trombone-ing are performed at the same time? not really relevant Could you please recap? again? ok: There's a trombone in a particular piece of choral music. To solve the puzzle, you'll need to find out why it might sound surprisingly low, but not that low. We've established that trumpets, tubas, Messiah and Christian beliefs are all involved in some way. Technical musical knowledge isn't needed. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4634 Registered: 4-2010 |
Are trumpets and/or tubas played in the piece? Is it another of Handel's compositions? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1952 Registered: 3-2006 |
Are trumpets and/or tubas played in the piece? The work itself contains two trumpets in D, and no tubas at all. This isn't significant at all, though. Is it another of Handel's compositions? No: the piece I have in mind is no less famous than Messiah, and was written about fifty years later. It might help slightly if you guessed it, but you can certainly work out the gist of the puzzle without knowing exactly which piece it is. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4749 Registered: 4-2010 |
Does it sound low because the vocal pitch is high? The trumpet pitch is high? So the trombone sounds low by comparison? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1953 Registered: 3-2006 |
Does it sound low because the vocal pitch is high? not this but ... The trumpet pitch is high? this is very much along the right lines So the trombone sounds low by comparison? yes indeed ... this idea is worth exploring | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4753 Registered: 4-2010 |
Does the trumpet only play high notes in the piece? Does it play notes higher than its typical range? Is the trumpet modified in any way? Is the trombone? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1954 Registered: 3-2006 |
Does the trumpet only play high notes in the piece? Does it play notes higher than its typical range? Is the trumpet modified in any way? Is the trombone? none of these, I'm afraid | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4767 Registered: 4-2010 |
Does the trombone only play low notes in the piece? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1957 Registered: 3-2006 |
Does the trombone only play low notes in the piece? no, nothing like this: all that matters is that it's a trombone | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4771 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is it a normal trombone? Is its mute in? Shot in the dark: Mad Trombonist urban legend relevant? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1959 Registered: 3-2006 |
Is it a normal trombone? yes Is its mute in? no, and irrel Shot in the dark: Mad Trombonist urban legend relevant? Haha! Another new one on me, duly googled. I really, really wish this was the answer :-) | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4774 Registered: 4-2010 |
Ohhh...you have to watch the MythBusters' test (and retest) of it. Lots of big booms. Is the person playing the trombone relevant? Is there only the one trombone? Or more than one? Does it hold a sustained note? A few sustained notes? A lot of them? Is the trombone in tune? Is the slide properly oiled? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1960 Registered: 3-2006 |
Is the person playing the trombone relevant? no Is there only the one trombone? actually three in the whole score, but ... Or more than one? ... just the one playing at the relevant moment, and it's more useful to think of just the one Does it hold a sustained note? A few sustained notes? A lot of them? Is the trombone in tune? Is the slide properly oiled? nope, all these are technical matters about the playing of the trombone, which aren't important. All that matters is that it is a trombone. Which, for some, might be surprising. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4778 Registered: 4-2010 |
Would other brass instruments not work for this? Does the trombone merely sound low when contrasted with the higher pitches of the trumpets? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1962 Registered: 3-2006 |
Would other brass instruments not work for this? No: trumpet, trombone and tuba are all you need. A serpent would have been fun, but hey. Does the trombone merely sound low when contrasted with the higher pitches of the trumpets? yes, exactly this ... but there may be a teeny FA here, depending on how you're thinking | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4784 Registered: 4-2010 |
Would the tuba sound extremely low? So the trombone would sound low compared to the trumpets, but not THAT low when you account for the tuba? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1963 Registered: 3-2006 |
Would the tuba sound extremely low? it would, yes So the trombone would sound low compared to the trumpets, but not THAT low when you account for the tuba? yes, that's what I meant by 'not that low' | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4789 Registered: 4-2010 |
So what's left to find out? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1964 Registered: 3-2006 |
So what's left to find out? Er ... pretty much everything. Mainly: why a trombone? And why would some people be surprised to hear it? And what have the Messiah, Christianity, trumpets and tubas got to do with it? | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 263 Registered: 9-2009 |
Wild guess: does the title refer to the devil? Does the song refer to the apocalypse? Angels blowing trumpets and the second coming of the Lord? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1965 Registered: 3-2006 |
Wild guess the wild guesses are often the bestest ... see below does the title refer to the devil? no, but ... Does the song refer to the apocalypse? yes! most certainly Angels blowing trumpets and the second coming of the Lord? yes, absolutely! now then ... | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 269 Registered: 9-2009 |
Is it relevant that the tuba had not been yet invented by the time the music was composed (if I am not mistaken)? Was the trombone the lowest pitched instrument available? Maybe not familiar to certain people? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1966 Registered: 3-2006 |
Is it relevant that the tuba had not been yet invented by the time the music was composed (if I am not mistaken)? you're dead right, but this isn't the relevant reason Was the trombone the lowest pitched instrument available? it may have been, but this isn't the reason it was used Maybe not familiar to certain people? not this either: the trombone itself was familiar, but some people would still be surprised to hear it ... | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 270 Registered: 9-2009 |
Was this by any chance Mozart's Requiem? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1967 Registered: 3-2006 |
Was this by any chance Mozart's Requiem? It was indeed! Incidentally, 'dirty-minded creature' was what Salieri called Mozart in the movie Amadeus. Should be easy to solve from here ... | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 271 Registered: 9-2009 |
Hmm, I don't see it coming, yet... Is it relevant that Mozart wrote only some parts of the work and others did the rest? Maybe using a trombone in a way Mozart wouldn't use it? So it sounded surprisingly low for a Mozart part? If I recollect well, some parts of Mozart's original work were used as source of inspiration for some other parts of the finished product. | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1968 Registered: 3-2006 |
Hmm, I don't see it coming, yet... It will ... Is it relevant that Mozart wrote only some parts of the work and others did the rest? no Maybe using a trombone in a way Mozart wouldn't use it? no, it isn't this So it sounded surprisingly low for a Mozart part? not this either If I recollect well, some parts of Mozart's original work were used as source of inspiration for some other parts of the finished product. true, but not the answer. You've pretty much arrived at the lateral-ish part. | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 272 Registered: 9-2009 |
Just to make sure: it sounded surprinsingly low as in low pitch, not of a surprinsingly low quality, correct? Are we looking to determine while the composer chose the trombone or why the people were surprised such an option has been taken? Both? Did the trombone sounded surprinsingly low for what it was trying to express through music (along the lines of, say, the angels using pan flutes instead of trumpets, for example)? The people were surprised hearing the sound: they considered it odd? Or just interesting? The trombone sounded low because the played notes were lower in scale (so it has something to do with the actual work), or it would have sounded low anyway, regardless of the notes in themselves, the only important thing being the fact that they were played by a trombone (which cannot get to the high pitched sounds of a trumpet)? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1969 Registered: 3-2006 |
Just to make sure: it sounded surprinsingly low as in low pitch, not of a surprinsingly low quality, correct? correct Are we looking to determine while the composer chose the trombone or why the people were surprised such an option has been taken? Both? Yes, both! Did the trombone sounded surprinsingly low for what it was trying to express through music (along the lines of, say, the angels using pan flutes instead of trumpets, for example)? yes, this is closest The people were surprised hearing the sound: they considered it odd? they might consider it a bit unusual, certainly ... a bit of a puzzle, even {Or just interesting? and perhaps this, too The trombone sounded low because the played notes were lower in scale (so it has something to do with the actual work), not this, but ... or it would have sounded low anyway, regardless of the notes in themselves, the only important thing being the fact that they were played by a trombone (which cannot get to the high pitched sounds of a trumpet)? this: some may be surprised that it was a trombone rather than a trumpet (regardless of the actual notes) | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4813 Registered: 4-2010 |
Was a trombone simply considered low for a requiem? Incidentally, I don't know Mozart's Requiem, but I do have a certain Falco song running on repeat in my head now. | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1970 Registered: 3-2006 |
Was a trombone simply considered low for a requiem? no | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 276 Registered: 9-2009 |
Could the composer decision be considered an 'innovation' or an 'experiment' in the field of music? Did he do it for purely musical purposes, or was his rationale something like: composing for a friend who played the trombone? In rememberance for such a friend? Fullfiling a promise? A bet? ('I bet you cannot put the voice of archangel Michael on a trombone' - 'Just watch me'). Incidentally, was the trombone played as part of the angels' chorus? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1971 Registered: 3-2006 |
Could the composer decision be considered an 'innovation' or an 'experiment' in the field of music? Not really: it wasn't even the first trombone used in a requiem, and only some people might find it surprising. Did he do it for purely musical purposes well, he must have liked the deep sonority, but there's another, more lateral, reason , or was his rationale something like: composing for a friend who played the trombone? nice idea and very possible, but not the reason I'm looking for In rememberance for such a friend? noFullfiling a promise? not that I know of A bet? ('I bet you cannot put the voice of archangel Michael on a trombone' - 'Just watch me'). Hahah! No, but a lovely idea Incidentally, was the trombone played as part of the angels' chorus? not quite, but plenty close enough: the trombone represented the trumpet played by the angel in the Last Judgement. That's why some might find it surprising. Now we just need the (lateral-ish) reason. And, to complete the puzzle, perhaps find out where tubas come into play. | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 280 Registered: 9-2009 |
Hmmm, I thought we were past the not-yet-invented tubas. Was it relevant that the sentiment of surprise came about later, after the people had a chance to hear the tubas? Is orchestration relevant? Was it another instrument, like the serpent, relevant instead of tuba? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1972 Registered: 3-2006 |
Hmmm, I thought we were past the not-yet-invented tubas. Hehe. Well, you can solve the trumpet/trombone issue without worrying too much about tubas ... Was it relevant that the sentiment of surprise came about later, after the people had a chance to hear the tubas? No, nothing like this. It's simply that some people (then and now) might be surprised to hear the Last Trumpet represented by a trombone. Is orchestration relevant? no, other than what you already know Was it another instrument, like the serpent, relevant instead of tuba? no | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 283 Registered: 9-2009 |
Relevant the text from the Book of Revelation? "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." And the people wondered how this can be represented by the sound of a trombone? | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 285 Registered: 9-2009 |
Never mind the last post... We only needed to concentrate on why the trombone was chosen. Incidentally ... something in the Book of Revelation brought about the idea? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1974 Registered: 3-2006 |
Relevant the text from the Book of Revelation? "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." And the people wondered how this can be represented by the sound of a trombone? Well, the trombone represents the Last Trumpet, not necessarily all the other stuff! But the Bible is certainly relevant ... Never mind the last post ... hahah, any pun intended? We only needed to concentrate on why the trombone was chosen. Incidentally ... something in the Book of Revelation brought about the idea? well, there are lots of relevant trumpets in Revelation, and Paul mentions the trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4829 Registered: 4-2010 |
Was it chosen to represent the destruction at the end times? The low spirit of the people? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1977 Registered: 3-2006 |
Was it chosen to represent the destruction at the end times? The low spirit of the people? perhaps a little of both, but there's a simpler reason | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4837 Registered: 4-2010 |
Does the trombone "clash" with the other trumpets? Thus distinguishing it as the Last Trumpet? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1980 Registered: 3-2006 |
Does the trombone "clash" with the other trumpets? Thus distinguishing it as the Last Trumpet? As usual, your guesses are a lot more fun than the real answer ... but no. I wish I could say that the last trumpeter had been eaten by a pantomime dog, so the trombonist had to stand in. :-) | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 295 Registered: 9-2009 |
Did you mean 1 Corinthians 15:32 or 1 Corinthians 13:1? "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal" Am I OTRT here or just swimming around? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4847 Registered: 4-2010 |
Are the actions when the Last Trumpet is blown relevant? (In Revelation, that is, not the trombone.) And with the "pantomime dog" (hee hee), you're quite close on that one. | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1981 Registered: 3-2006 |
Did you mean 1 Corinthians 15:32 or 1 Corinthians 13:1? "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal" Am I OTRT here or just swimming around? Swimming around, I'm afraid. But a neat link, and it made me think of Brahms ... so it's all good Are the actions when the Last Trumpet is blown relevant? (In Revelation, that is, not the trombone.) Arrrgh, no! The details of Revelation are way too complicated. If you go down that route, we'll be here till Kingdom come. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4860 Registered: 4-2010 |
Were they simply out of trumpets? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1982 Registered: 3-2006 |
Were they simply out of trumpets? Heheh ... no | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 296 Registered: 9-2009 |
Ok, let's approach it more seriously: Was the decision based -- or inspired -- by some verse in the Bible? Did the author believe that a lower pitch was more appropriate for the rendition of the idea expressed by said verse? Was the OT involved (maybe the Psalms, or Leviticus)? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1983 Registered: 3-2006 |
Ok, let's approach it more seriously: Was the decision based -- or inspired -- by some verse in the Bible? strictly yes, but this may mislead Did the author believe that a lower pitch was more appropriate for the rendition of the idea expressed by said verse? Mozart may have thought that a trombone conveyed the idea more suitably... but there is another reason still to be discovered Was the OT involved (maybe the Psalms, or Leviticus)? No. Stick to the NT. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4868 Registered: 4-2010 |
Are we looking for something in the Gospels? Acts? Paul's letters? Other letters? Revelation? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1984 Registered: 3-2006 |
Are we looking for something in the Gospels? Acts? Paul's letters? Other letters? Revelation? Corinthians and Revelation, certainly. But you don't need to find any more Biblical references. You have all the ones you need. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4870 Registered: 4-2010 |
Since this is a requiem, is the trombone representative of the dead? Of the dead being raised? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1985 Registered: 3-2006 |
Since this is a requiem, is the trombone representative of the dead? Of the dead being raised? well, of the Last Trumpet scattering its sounds amongst the tombs of the dead ... | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 301 Registered: 9-2009 |
Was Mozart trying to convey the idea: of something descending from the heaven? Of the great dragon being cast down? Of the final battle between the angels and the demons? Of the resurrection of the dead? And from a yet to be determined lateralish reason, he decided to use the trombone? About the tuba part: Is the connection simply the fact that the Latin for trumpet is tuba? | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 302 Registered: 9-2009 |
Another idea: was the conveyed idea that of people staying humbly before the Lord? So the final trumpet is not considered one of war, but one of judgement? I assume we are talking of the part of the requiem that contains Dies Irae? Hopefully something will come out of these 2 posts, otherwise I start to believe that I will find the elusive reason after the seven trumpet will sound, by asking Mozart directly! | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1986 Registered: 3-2006 |
Was Mozart trying to convey the idea: of something descending from the heaven? Of the great dragon being cast down? Of the final battle between the angels and the demons? Of the resurrection of the dead? perhaps all of these, but not relevant And from a yet to be determined lateralish reason, he decided to use the trombone? yes About the tuba part: Is the connection simply the fact that the Latin for trumpet is tuba? YES! ... exactly. Perhaps explore further ... Another idea: was the conveyed idea that of people staying humbly before the Lord? So the final trumpet is not considered one of war, but one of judgement? no: it's something far simpler than this I assume we are talking of the part of the requiem that contains Dies Irae? yes we are: the Tuba mirum section Hopefully something will come out of these 2 posts, otherwise I start to believe that I will find the elusive reason after the seven trumpet will sound, by asking Mozart directly! hehe ... and then we will all proceed to Lateral Limbo :-) | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 304 Registered: 9-2009 |
So, Mozart chose to use a trombone for two reasons: 1. Because it conveyed the idea (whatever that was) more suitably 2. For another, lateralish, reason Correct so far? Apart from #2 above, is there anything else to be found? Trying to get to that reason (#2): had it been invented already, would have Mozart been equally likely to use a tuba? is that reason connected with the low tones of a trombone, or has nothing to do with it, the 'low pitch' being covered by reason #1? if this is true, was the reason: that he personally liked the trombone? that the people hearing the first performance liked this instrument? disliked it? Was he (Mozart) trying to impress someone by this use of the trombone? Does the trombone in itself has any other attributes (other than the low pitch) that triggered his decision? Its name? Its shape? The Italian for trumpet relevant here? Is the text of Dies Irae relevant? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1987 Registered: 3-2006 |
So, Mozart chose to use a trombone for two reasons: 1. Because it conveyed the idea (whatever that was) more suitably 2. For another, lateralish, reason Correct so far? yes, but it's only the second one that's relevant to the puzzle Apart from #2 above, is there anything else to be found? no: this is the last piece, you'll be pleased to know! Trying to get to that reason (#2): had it been invented already, would have Mozart been equally likely to use a tuba? no is that reason connected with the low tones of a trombone no, but rather ..., or has nothing to do with it, the 'low pitch' being covered by reason #1? this if this is true, was the reason: that he personally liked the trombone? no that the people hearing the first performance liked this instrument? no disliked it? no Was he (Mozart) trying to impress someone by this use of the trombone? no Does the trombone in itself has any other attributes (other than the low pitch) that triggered his decision? Its name? yes Its shape? no The Italian for trumpet relevant here? not really, but ... Is the text of Dies Irae relevant? only the relevant part: Tuba mirum spargens sonum Getting really close now | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 305 Registered: 9-2009 |
So, the relation of the (name of the) trombone and the relevant part from Dies irae: is related to the sense of that phrase? Or is it an anagram of some sort involved? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1988 Registered: 3-2006 |
So, the relation of the (name of the) trombone and the relevant part from Dies irae: is related to the sense of that phrase? not quite sure I understand the question, but ... the Latin word tuba is relevant, and so is the name of the trombone Or is it an anagram of some sort involved? no no, nothing like this | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 306 Registered: 9-2009 |
What I meant was if the sense of the text ("The trumpet, scattering a wondrous sound") has a connection to the name of the trombone. Apparently it hasn't and only the word tuba is relevant? The name of the trombone: in Latin? in Italian? in German? | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1989 Registered: 3-2006 |
What I meant was if the sense of the text ("The trumpet, scattering a wondrous sound") has a connection to the name of the trombone. Well, it has in a way ... see below Apparently it hasn't and only the word tuba is relevant? The name of the trombone: in Latin? in Italian? in German? Yes! This one ... which incidentally is Posaune. Can you put everything together for the solution? | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 307 Registered: 9-2009 |
If Goethe is involved, I might try... So: anything related to "Am jüngsten Tag, wenn die Posaunen schallen / Und alles aus ist mit dem Erdeleben," etc? Or am I starting again to swim around in circles? I don't even know if the sonnet was published at the time Mozart wrote his requiem... | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1990 Registered: 3-2006 |
If Goethe is involved Well, he isn't, directly ... but it's another lovely example of the same idea, I might try... So: anything related to "Am jüngsten Tag, wenn die Posaunen schallen / Und alles aus ist mit dem Erdeleben," etc? Or am I starting again to swim around in circles? I don't even know if the sonnet was published at the time Mozart wrote his requiem... I'd guess they were written at about the same time, and I don't know whether one directly influenced the other. Perhaps if you go back earlier, to a common linguistic ancestry ... | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 308 Registered: 9-2009 |
Is it that in some medieval pictures the angels were playing the buisine (a sort of a trumpet), from which etymologically the Posaune derives? | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 309 Registered: 9-2009 |
And to add to that: the buisine was a large trumpet (longer) and the trombone is nothing else (etymologically) than 'una grande tromba'. Correct? Relevant? Finish line? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 4885 Registered: 4-2010 |
I hope that's the finish line...thank you, Rbruma; I never would have come up with any of this. | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1992 Registered: 3-2006 |
Is it that in some medieval pictures the angels were playing the buisine (a sort of a trumpet), from which etymologically the Posaune derives? And to add to that: the buisine was a large trumpet (longer) and the trombone is nothing else (etymologically) than 'una grande tromba'. Correct? Relevant? Finish line? well, slightly overshooting the line and into the long grass, but plenty close enough for a: **** SPOILER **** The Bible, as we all know, is full of lurid predictions of the end of the world, heralded by multi-headed beasts, angels playing trumpets, and all that good stuff. Or at least they're trumpets if you're an English speaker. If you're a German-speaking believer, you might not expect a Last Trumpet, but a Last Trombone. In the Vulgate, it's 'novissima tuba' (nothing so low as a modern tuba, of course). In the King James Version, this is translated as 'last trumpet'. This is the version Handel followed in his trumpet solo from Messiah. But Martin Luther, in his German Bible of 1534, translated it as 'die letzte Posaune'. He probably wanted a more Germanic word than 'Trompete', and at that time the words were more or less interchangeable. As Rbruma says, it probably just meant a long thin hunting-horn. But the word 'Posaune' came to mean a trombone, and that's certainly what it meant in Mozart's time. So an English audience might find Mozart's famous trombone solo a bit puzzling ... or surprisingly low for a last trumpet. But a German audience would positively expect it. Btw, I'd be intrigued to know what the Last Trumpet is in other languages. In the New New Happy Bible, it might be Rolf Harris and the Last Stylophone. Thanks to Balin and Rbruma for sticking with it, and for the wealth of additional info. | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 315 Registered: 9-2009 |
Hmmm, I missed the connection with Luther's translation, although I have it in my room but never (laterally) thought to check it. Thank you for this very interesting puzzle. |
