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Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 6746
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 12:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A: "Tell me about the secret weapon!"

B: "I already told you, there is no secret weapon..."

A: "Don't lie to me! I saw it with my own two eyes!"

Feel free to give these characters more creative names than A and B - I can't think of good ones.

Both speakers are HAM
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 12:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmm...Ron and Matt? (respectively)
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 12:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmm...Ron and Matt? (respectively) Sounds good.
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 12:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, so, LTPF List of Usual Questions (aside from HAM as we know that) :

True story? FYOI? FSEI?

On Earth?

Assuming that, LTPF list of continents? Centuries?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 12:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, so, LTPF List of Usual Questions (aside from HAM as we know that) :

True story? This FYOI? FSEI?

On Earth? Yes

Assuming that, LTPF list of continents? Europe Centuries? 20th
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 12:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you :D

OK, so secret weapons make me think of war. WWI? WWII?

Are Ron and Matt from the same country? Different? Opposing sides of a war? Is either one a prisoner of the other? (Matt a prisoner of Ron, I'd guess, if that...)
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 12:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you :D You're welcome, though I'm not exactly sure for what...

OK, so secret weapons make me think of war. WWI? WWII? This

Are Ron and Matt from the same country? No Different? Yes Opposing sides of a war? Yes Is either one a prisoner of the other? Yes (Matt a prisoner of Ron, I'd guess, if that...) Correct
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 12:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For answering my questions. :D And because you let me call one of the people Matt. I like the name Matt.

Okay, so one is Allied and the other is Axis, then?

Ron: Allied? Axis?
Matt: Allied? Axis?

Is the Allied one: French? British? American? Something else?

Axis one: German? Japanese? Italian?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 12:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For answering my questions. :D And because you let me call one of the people Matt. I like the name Matt. As do I, though I'm obviously biased... =)

Okay, so one is Allied and the other is Axis, then? Yes

Ron: Allied? Axis? This
Matt: Allied? This Axis?

Is the Allied one: French? British? American? This Something else?

Axis one: German? This Japanese? Italian?
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 12:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

*Snickers at the image* And all my dad's life he beat people up for asking him if he was German, when he is, in fact, not...:D

Ok, so: Ron, the German (officer? soldier? Commander? Something else?) has Matt, the American (same questions as before) in his clutches. Ron the German wants to know about Matt's secret weapon belonging to the Americans, supposedly. But Matt insists the Americans have no such thing.

Is Matt lying? Or do they and Matt just doesn't know? Or did Ron get misinformed by somebody? Or he just suspects the Americans have one? Is Matt somebody important that was captured? Is Ron somebody important?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 1:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

*Snickers at the image* And all my dad's life he beat people up for asking him if he was German, when he is, in fact, not...:D

Ok, so: Ron, the German (officer? soldier? Commander? Something else?) Not really relevant has Matt, the American (same questions as before) Captain in his clutches. Ron the German wants to know about Matt's secret weapon belonging to the Americans, supposedly. But Matt insists the Americans have no such thing. Correct.

Is Matt lying? No Or do they and Matt just doesn't know? No Or did Ron get misinformed by somebody? No Or he just suspects the Americans have one? Noish/Yope Is Matt somebody important that was captured? Noish Is Ron somebody important? No
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 1:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, so Ron, the German interrogator of irrelevant rank, has Captain Matt the American in his clutches. Ron the German wants to know about Matt's secret weapon belonging to the Americans, supposedly. But Matt insists the Americans have no such thing.

Matt isn't lying; the Americans don't have a secret weapon, but Ron doesn't believe him; he noishly/yopishly believes they do. Captain Matt is noishly important, and Ron is nobody important at all. Right?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 1:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, so Ron, the German interrogator of irrelevant rank, has Captain Matt the American in his clutches. Ron the German wants to know about Matt's secret weapon belonging to the Americans, supposedly. But Matt insists the Americans have no such thing.

Matt isn't lying; the Americans don't have a secret weapon, but Ron doesn't believe him; he noishly/yopishly believes they do. No - he does believe they do. I misunderstood the original question - my bad (BLOOPER). Remember the 2nd thing that Ron says. Captain Matt is noishly important, and Ron is nobody important at all. Right? Well, Matt is very important to the story, but isn't, say, the highest-ranking captain or anything.

The rest of this is correct.
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 1:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok. So Ron the German interrogator saw SOMETHING belonging to the Americans (or does it?), which he believes is a secret weapon, and Captain Matt, his prisoner, insists it is not.

Captain Matt is important to the story but not important in the American military (Army? Air Force? Marines? Navy? Something else? Ditto for Ron though you said it was irrelevant...curiousity is all)

And since this is a true story, Ron the German and Captain Matt are real people.

Would it help to narrow down when and where this happened during the war?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 1:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok. So Ron the German interrogator saw SOMETHING belonging to the Americans (or does it?), which he believes is a secret weapon, and Captain Matt, his prisoner, insists it is not. Correct

Captain Matt is important to the story but not important in the American military Well, he is important in the military, but not supreme-commander-important. Ignore this line of questioning - it will only cause confusion. And see below. (Army? Air Force? Marines? Navy? Something else? Ditto for Ron though you said it was irrelevant...curiousity is all) Matt's a pilot. Ron is probably in the German army.

And since this is a true story, Ron the German and Captain Matt are real people. Matt certainly is. The character of Ron and the dialogue are based on real events that happened to Matt. Essentially, this is dialogue that could have occurred, but probably did not occur in this exact manner. Focus on the "secret weapon."

Would it help to narrow down when and where this happened during the war? Germany, late 1944.
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 1:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, so the "secret weapon" isn't REALLY a secret weapon...Ron just THINKS it is. Yes?

So is the "secret weapon" some kind of surveillance? A camera? A weather balloon? Matt's a pilot...is it his plane? Part of his plane? A plane or aircraft in general?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 2:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, so the "secret weapon" isn't REALLY a secret weapon...Ron just THINKS it is. Yes? Yes.

So is the "secret weapon" some kind of surveillance? A camera? A weather balloon? None of these Matt's a pilot...is it his plane? Yesish Part of his plane? No A plane or aircraft in general? Yesish
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 3:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Matt not piloting a plane? Is it a helicopter? Some other sort of aircraft?

And whatever aircraft it is, being flown by Matt, is the "secret weapon"?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 3:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Matt not piloting a plane? No, he is piloting a plane. Is it a helicopter? Some other sort of aircraft?

And whatever aircraft it is, Yes (tiny ish) being flown by Matt, Yope is the "secret weapon"? Yes
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 5:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is he in the plane? Or is it a radio controlled airplane?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 2:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is he in the plane? Yes, but... Or is it a radio controlled airplane? No
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 2:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it something attached to Matt's plane? So he yopishly flies it? Did our German Ron mistake for a weapon some outfit of the American plane, which wasn't really a weapon?

Was Matt flying an American airplane when he was captured? Was he shot down while in mission in Germany?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 2:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it something attached to Matt's plane? Yope So he yopishly flies it? No, he really flew his plane. Did our German Ron mistake for a weapon some outfit of the American plane, which wasn't really a weapon? Noish

Was Matt flying an American airplane when he was captured? It had crashed, but yes. Was he shot down while in mission in Germany? No

There has been an underlying FA.
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 3:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Argh...I hate FA's. Any chance of a recap/hint to help clear this up?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 4:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Argh...I hate FA's. Any chance of a recap/hint to help clear this up? I'll do my best - hoping not to give the answer away.

RECAP: German officer Ron is interrogating Matt, a captain and pilot, about the new American "secret weapon". Matt was flying a plane, which crashed in Germany, resulting in him being taken prisoner.

HINT: Focus on the "secret weapon", and try to figure out how the plane crashed.
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the "secret weapon":
Aircraft?
Mechanical?
Explosive?
Chemical?
Unobtainium?
Upsidaisium?


(I'm sure that's not a full LTPF list of things secret weapons can be...)
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 4:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the "secret weapon":
Aircraft? This, but remember; it wasn't actually a secret weapon.
Mechanical?
Explosive?
Chemical?
Unobtainium?
Upsidaisium?


(I'm sure that's not a full LTPF list of things secret weapons can be...)
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 7:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

(Cool, a military aviation puzzle for me to solve instead of set!)

Was it simply a new plane? (or appeared to be one?)

Typically German guards guarded their service counterparts, so you had the German air force guarding air force prisoners, for example -- yet Ron, the German, is in the army. Relevant? Is Matt actually in the air force?

Are they in a PoW camp, or an initial processing/interrogation center?

Was Ron present when Matt crashed? When he was captured? Is it relevant how Matt came to be captured? Was he shot down? By air or ground forces? Relevant what type of plane he flew?

Did Ron have good reason for thinking it was a secret weapon? Had he, or any Germans, ever seen it in action before? Was Matt a combat pilot, a test pilot, or something else?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 12:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

(Cool, a military aviation puzzle for me to solve instead of set!) I was wondering what you'd think...hope you approve.

Was it simply a new plane? No (or appeared to be one?) Yesish

Typically German guards guarded their service counterparts, so you had the German air force guarding air force prisoners, for example -- yet Ron, the German, is in the army. Relevant? No, that's just a BLOOPER - Ron should be in the air force. My bad. Is Matt actually in the air force? Yes

Are they in a PoW camp, or an initial processing/interrogation center? I think PoW

Was Ron present when Matt crashed? Well, he saw it. When he was captured? Assume yes Is it relevant how Matt came to be captured? Yes Was he shot down? No By air or ground forces? No Relevant what type of plane he flew? Yope - it was a bomber.

Did Ron have good reason for thinking it was a secret weapon? Yope Had he, or any Germans, ever seen it in action before? Yope Was Matt a combat pilot, a test pilot, or something else? Combat
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 1:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did it appear to be new due to:

- armament?
- markings?
- modifications to the plane itself?
- observed capabilities?
- equipment?

Was it a new mark of an older plane? Was the "secret weapon" a physical part of the plane? Carried aboard it?

Does Matt know of whatever this is? If Ron asked him using ordinary terminology rather than calling it a "secret weapon" (such as, 'tell me about this new radar set,' or 'what is this new weapon on your plane?') would Matt understand what Ron was talking about? If so, would he be happy to answer, or would he conceal what he knew? Is Ron's question one anyone might ask, or would a more knowledgeable German be asking this question at all?

Bomber: Four-engine? Two? One? Armed? American? British? Other? One crewman? More?

Has Ron seen the "secret weapon?" Before, while, or after Matt was shot down? Had he heard it? Smelt, felt, tasted?

Is Ron a professional interrogator? Is he specifically and officially assigned to interrogate Matt? Is anyone else involved? If so, how many, and are they German, American, or other? Are Ron's and Matt's ranks relevant?

Was Matt alone when he was shot down, or were other American planes present? If so, were they part of his squadron?

How Matt came to crash: Pilot error? Enemy action? Running out of gas? Flying too low? Navigational error?
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 1:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

*emails a guess of aircraft in question to Balin*
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 1:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

*blink* Why? Is it experimental? Can't think of any specific bomber type that would be relevant to this...
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 2:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I just asked Balin if "Old 666" had anything to do with this, because my grandpa sent me an email. I think that plane was a bomber. Don't know if it was shot down over Germany, so pretty much just random question. I do know it was shot down a lot though.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 3:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It survived its missions (in the Pacific) and was returned to the US, though it took a lot of casualties and damage.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 11:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did it appear to be new due to:

- armament?
- markings?
- modifications to the plane itself? Yope to this...
- observed capabilities?
- equipment? ...and this. No to rest

Was it a new mark of an older plane? What do you mean by "mark"? Was the "secret weapon" a physical part of the plane? It was the plane...ish. Carried aboard it? No

Does Matt know of whatever this is? Yes If Ron asked him using ordinary terminology rather than calling it a "secret weapon" (such as, 'tell me about this new radar set,' or 'what is this new weapon on your plane?') would Matt understand what Ron was talking about? He did know what Ron was talking about, and he was telling the truth. If so, would he be happy to answer, Probably this or would he conceal what he knew? Is Ron's question one anyone might ask, or would a more knowledgeable German be asking this question at all? Anyone who had started watching the planes in the air a certain time before Ron would not have asked the question, although anyone watching from the time Ron did could have assumed the same thing he did.

Bomber: Four-engine? Two? One? Armed? American? British? Other? One crewman? More? B-17G Flying Fortress, armed, American, don't know engine details.

Has Ron seen the "secret weapon?" Yes Before, while, or after Matt was shot down? He wasn't shot down. But "while". Had he heard it? Probably Smelt, felt, tasted? No to these

Is Ron a professional interrogator? Irrel Is he specifically and officially assigned to interrogate Matt? Probably, irrel Is anyone else involved? If so, how many, and are they German, American, or other? Well, there is another plane involved - see below. Are Ron's and Matt's ranks relevant? Matt's-ish, only in that he was a pilot. Ron isn't that important to the story anymore.

Was Matt alone when he was shot down, or were other American planes present? The latter If so, were they part of his squadron? Yes

How Matt came to crash: Pilot error? Enemy action? Running out of gas? Flying too low? Navigational error? None of these, really.

*emails a guess of aircraft in question to Balin* Incorrect, although Matt's plane was, indeed, a B-17.

*blink* Why? Is it experimental? No Can't think of any specific bomber type that would be relevant to this...

To help, I will clear up the FA. There are two planes involved in this puzzle - I think everyone assumed just the one. The other people most relevant to the puzzle are the co-pilot of Matt's plane and the pilot of the second plane, but the puzzle can be solved without focusing on them.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 1:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Mark" refers to version. For example, the B-17G (the classic) is significantly different from the B-17A (the original) - different weight, more crew, lots more guns - but is essentially the same plane. Also, Flying Forts have four engines.

Did two planes collide? Was the second plane American? German? Flown by Ron? Was Matt's copilot responsible for the crash? Did any of Matt's crew die in the crash? If so, all of them but him?}
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 5:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Mark" refers to version. For example, the B-17G (the classic) is significantly different from the B-17A (the original) - different weight, more crew, lots more guns - but is essentially the same plane. Also, Flying Forts have four engines. Thanks for the lesson - I had no idea of any of that.

Did two planes collide? Yes... Was the second plane American? Yes, it was another B-17G. German? So not this Flown by Ron? No Was Matt's copilot responsible for the crash? No - it's unclear exactly who was responsible. Did any of Matt's crew die in the crash? Yes If so, all of them but him? No
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 11:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it relevant who survived? Who died? Did the copilot survive? Were both B-17Gs fully manned at the time with all ten crewmembers apiece? Were they on a mission at the time? Over Germany?

Is weather relevant?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 11:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it relevant who survived? Not really Who died? Well, one of the deceased may help piece together the scenario - the ball turret gunner on Matt's plane did not survive. Did the copilot survive? Yes Were both B-17Gs fully manned at the time with all ten crewmembers apiece? Each had 8 crewmembers. Were they on a mission at the time? Yes Over Germany? Yes

Is weather relevant? Not really - I'll say Noish/Yope.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 11:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the time of day when they were flying relevant? The amount of light? Humidity?

Was Matt's landing gear jammed? Did he land without it? Was his ballgunner in the ball at the time of his plane hitting the ground?

Did the two B17s collide in midair? On the ground? On in the air and one on the ground (if so, was Matt's in the air)? Did either survive the collision and have a reasonable chance of safe landing?

Was the mission: Bombing? Recon? Leaflet dropping? VIP-carrying? Food-parcel dropping? Pathfinding?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 11:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Experimental flights relevant? Anything to do with Joseph Kennedy?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 11:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the time of day when they were flying relevant? The amount of light? Humidity? None of these

Was Matt's landing gear jammed? Yope Did he land without it? Yes Was his ballgunner in the ball at the time of his plane hitting the ground? Yes

Did the two B17s collide in midair? This On the ground? On in the air and one on the ground (if so, was Matt's in the air)? Did either survive the collision and have a reasonable chance of safe landing? Well...they were both intact after the collision, but not after the landing.

Was the mission: Bombing? This, but not really relevant. Recon? Leaflet dropping? VIP-carrying? Food-parcel dropping? Pathfinding?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 11:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Experimental flights relevant? Anything to do with Joseph Kennedy? No to both.

And clarification on my last post: Both planes were intact after the collision, but there was pretty much no chance of a safe landing.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 1:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did one shear off the other's landing gear or otherwise cripple it? Did Ron witness this midair collision, or just the wheels-up landing of Matt's plane? Did he take the collision as evidence of a secret weapon? The landing?

Does Ron believe this secret weapon:
- can directly kill Germans?
- indirectly kill Germans?
- protect Allied planes?
- protect other Allied equipment?
- protect Allied personnel?
- damage German equipment?

Does he think it is a weapon at all (ie, something that causes damage)? Or is he speaking figuratively (eg, "The Enigma machine was the Allies' secret weapon in the intelligence war.")?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 1:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did one shear off the other's landing gear or otherwise cripple it? The latter-ish. You have an FA about the collision itself. Did Ron witness this midair collision, or just the wheels-up landing of Matt's plane? I'm actually not sure I'd call it a "wheels-up" landing. But this. Did he take the collision as evidence of a secret weapon? Yope The landing? No

Does Ron believe this secret weapon:
- can directly kill Germans?
- indirectly kill Germans?
- protect Allied planes?
- protect other Allied equipment?
- protect Allied personnel?
- damage German equipment? All irrel

Does he think it is a weapon at all (ie, something that causes damage)? This Or is he speaking figuratively (eg, "The Enigma machine was the Allies' secret weapon in the intelligence war.")?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 1:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the two planes touch each other in flight? Accidentally? Had they been flying in formation? Was one damaged? Both? Did this cause them to crash? Become unserviceable?

Does Ron believe he knows the purpose of the secret weapon?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 1:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the two planes touch each other in flight? YES... Accidentally? Yes, but... Had they been flying in formation? They had been... Was one damaged? Both? This Did this cause them to crash? Yes Become unserviceable? Yes

Does Ron believe he knows the purpose of the secret weapon? No
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 1:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was part of the formation that they had to touch each other? But they did it wrong, making a mistake somehow and it caused a problem?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 1:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was part of the formation that they had to touch each other? No But they did it wrong, a mistake somehow and it caused a problem? Not really - the mistake occurred when Matt went to fill in a gap in the formation after one of the planes was shot down.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 2:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Ron think the B17s were deliberately destroyed? That they destroyed each other? That a secret weapon of some sort had backfired on the Americans?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 2:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Ron think the B17s were deliberately destroyed? No That they destroyed each other? Noish - in a way, they did. That a secret weapon of some sort had backfired on the Americans? Probably

HINT: Focus on how they collided.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 2:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did their wingtips touch? Was one above the other? Behind?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 2:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did their wingtips touch? Not their wingtips... Was one above the other? THIS... Behind?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 2:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did a wing touch a fuselage? Or another wing? (perhaps due to turning too sharply while too close to each other.)
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 3:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did a wing No touch a fuselage? Yes Or another wing? No (perhaps due to turning too sharply while too close to each other.) No
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 3:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did fuselage touch fuselage? Lengthwise or crosswise? Relevant? Did the top one (flown by Matt) scrape its ball turret off on the other?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 3:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did fuselage touch fuselage? Yes! Lengthwise or crosswise? Relevant? Lengthwise, and VERY relevant. Did the top one (flown by Matt) scrape its ball turret off on the other? No - even more of a collision than that.
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 4:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did one fall upside down on top of the other one which was right side up? Or maybe they were both upside down?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 4:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did one fall upside down on top of the other one which was right side up? Or maybe they were both upside down? Neither...
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 4:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they fly head-on past each other, or were they flying in the same direction at the time?

Were Matt and his copilot deliberately trying to get close to the other plane?

Did pieces fall off the two planes? Into Germany?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 4:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the other B-17 American? Did Ron think either plane was German?

Was this incident witnessed by anyone besides Ron and the crews of the two B-17s?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they fly head-on past each other, or were they flying in the same direction at the time? The latter

Were Matt and his copilot deliberately trying to get close to the other plane? No

Did pieces fall off the two planes? No Into Germany?

Was the other B-17 American? Yes Did Ron think either plane was German? No

Was this incident witnessed by anyone besides Ron and the crews of the two B-17s? Yes
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 9:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it witnessed by the crews of other B-17s? Other Americans? Germans on the ground? In the air? Relevant? Was Ron the only German to think a secret weapon was involved? Did any Americans think a secret weapon was involved? Does Ron's background or circumstances predispose him to believe in a secret weapon (for example, is he paranoid)? Or would any German in his position have thought the same thing?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 9:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it witnessed by the crews of other B-17s? Probably Other Americans? See previous Germans on the ground? Yes In the air? Not sure Relevant? Only that everyone who witnessed the collision knew there was no secret weapon. Was Ron the only German to think a secret weapon was involved? No Did any Americans think a secret weapon was involved? No Does Ron's background or circumstances predispose him to believe in a secret weapon (for example, is he paranoid)? Probably not Or would any German in his position have thought the same thing? Possibly

The only thing left to solve is the exact nature of the collision.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 10:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm having trouble visualizing it... Was either plane still loaded with bombs? Ammo? Gas? Did either explode?

Did one plane destroy another by colliding with it? Was a German plane trapped and crushed between the B-17s?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 10:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm having trouble visualizing it... Was either plane still loaded with bombs? Ammo? Gas? All irrel Did either explode? No

Did one plane destroy another by colliding with it? Noish Was a German plane trapped and crushed between the B-17s? No, but take out the German plane, and...
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 10:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A pilot?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 10:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A pilot? No
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 10:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the B-17s trap and crush another B-17?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 10:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the B-17s trap and crush another B-17? They didn't crush anything between them, but you and Jenburdoo have got enough.

**********SPOILER**********

On December 31, 1944, Capt. Glenn Rojohn (our "Matt") was piloting a B-17G in a bombing raid over Hamburg when his plane collided with another B-17G; the two planes stuck together, "piggyback"-style. No longer able to fly, the planes started to drift downwards, but Rojohn and copilot Lt. William Leek were able to keep the planes steady enough for the crew to evacuate. After the planes crashed, all the surviving crew members, including Rojohn and Leek, were taken prisoner, and interrogated for hours about the new "American secret weapon." All were freed at war's end.

The full story can be found here, here, and here.

Nice job, Kaylee and Jenburdoo, who worked together for the takedown. To the latter, I hope you enjoyed this one as much as I enjoy your military aviation puzzles.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 10:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

At first I didn't understand what the secret weapon was, then I read the articles. That would be one monster of a plane!

I did enjoy it, Balin; thanks for the puzzle!
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2010 - 3:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Whoops - the 2nd and 3rd articles posted are the exact same - one reprinted the other. The third one is the better of the two (which sounds completely paradoxical, I know), as it has more info. That's a post-$poyler BLOOPER, I believe.

Jenburdoo: glad you enjoyed it!

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