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Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 10321
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Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2011 - 2:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The second in my "Spin-offs of Whirligig's Puzzles" series:

Twelve people gather. A few years later, one of them dies. Shortly after, another one dies. This continues, so that eventually, as a result of the original death, only one of them dies from natural causes.
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2011 - 2:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Your puzzle statement seems to say that 11 died from "unnatural" causes. Correct?

Unnatural causes = murder? accidents?
Natural causes = illness? old age? heart attack/stroke/similar sudden medical ailment?

Did the 12 people know each other before they gathered? Did they keep in touch after they gathered?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2011 - 2:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Any relevance to Ten Little Indians, by Agatha Christie?

Are they gathered together the second time? Do they all die of the same cause?
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2011 - 6:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Will I receive credit and, say, 20% of the profits? If not, expect a C&D by tomorrow morning.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 12:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Your puzzle statement seems to say that 11 died from "unnatural" causes. Correct? Yes

Unnatural causes = murder? This for all 11 accidents?
Natural causes = illness? old age? heart attack/stroke/similar sudden medical ailment? Irrel and unknown

Did the 12 people know each other before they gathered? No Did they keep in touch after they gathered? Assume no

Any relevance to Ten Little Indians, by Agatha Christie? No, but what an awesome book!

Are they gathered together the second time? No Do they all die of the same cause? DOYD of "cause" - they were all murdered, but they all were killed in different manners.

Will I receive credit and, say, 20% of the profits? If not, expect a C&D by tomorrow morning. This puzzle is strictly not-for-profit
Noel (Noel)
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Post Number: 2181
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 6:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they murdered because of the meeting? Because of something else that was the reason for the meeting?

Were they murdered by the one who died of natural causes?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 6:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they murdered because of the meeting? Yope Because of something else that was the reason for the meeting? Yopish

Were they murdered by the one who died of natural causes? No
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 8:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gender relevant here?

If the one dying of natural causes had not died, would he/she too have been murdered?

Era or location relevant?

Is this a true story? FSEI? FYOI?
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 10396
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Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 12:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gender relevant here? No

If the one dying of natural causes FA had not died, would he/she too have been murdered? Yes

Era or location relevant? Yope to location

Is this a true story? FSEI? This - from a TV show FYOI?
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 2:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant Location = geographical location? a certain type of location (such as a type of building)?
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 10416
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Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 6:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant Location = geographical location? a certain type of location (such as a type of building)? This
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 7:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A specific type of building? If so, office? government? residence? hospital? attraction (e.g. a museum)? recreational? education? Secret lair =)? military?

A specific type of room within a building?

A specific type of outdoor location? If so, a park? a swimming pool? Another outdoor recreational facility? A hiking trail? A sports field? A street? A sidewalk? The roof of a building? A scenic overlook? A type of natural feature? An airport? A bus stop? A train stop? A campus?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 7:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A specific type of building? Yes If so, office? government? This, I think residence? hospital? attraction (e.g. a museum)? recreational? education? Secret lair =)? military?

A specific type of room within a building? This too

A specific type of outdoor location? If so, a park? a swimming pool? Another outdoor recreational facility? A hiking trail? A sports field? A street? A sidewalk? The roof of a building? A scenic overlook? A type of natural feature? An airport? A bus stop? A train stop? A campus?
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 7:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Government...twelve people...The Supreme Court? Any court? A jury?
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 7:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And, of course, there's only nine on the Supreme Court...at least here. I knew that...lol...I was thinking of a jury. Any courthouse would be considered 'a government building', I suppose. Is that it?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 10:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Government...twelve people...The Supreme Court? No, but... Any court? ...yes, a courthouse, and... A jury? Yes!
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2011 - 12:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the murderer the defendant in the trial? Someone affiliated with the defendant? Is it the victim? Someone affiliated with the victim?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2011 - 9:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the murderer the defendant in the trial? Yes, so none of the rest Someone affiliated with the defendant? Is it the victim? Someone affiliated with the victim?
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2011 - 9:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the defendant found guilty? Did he/she serve time? Escape from jail? Get out at the end of his/her sentence?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2011 - 9:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the defendant found guilty? Yesish - it was a civil trial, but the defendant was found at fault Did he/she serve time? No Escape from jail? Get out at the end of his/her sentence?
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2011 - 9:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

what's a civil trial?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2011 - 9:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

what's a civil trial? It means there was no criminal act (murder, theft, etc), but one person/group can still be at fault for, say, injury.

By the way, the verdict for the trial is irrelevant. One thing that happened during the trial is.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Friday, January 07, 2011 - 3:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant what was the subject of trial? If so: money loss? injury? damage of property? contract not fulfilled? Other?
Did the murders occured because of something that happened during trial? If so: Because of what someone said? Did? Because of some evidence in the trial?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Friday, January 07, 2011 - 3:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Lots of thoughts on this so forgive sledgehammer approach..

Is the first of the deaths the one by natural causes? Was anyone else present in court subsequently murdered or just the jury members?

Did the jury agree on the verdict unanimously ? or by a majority? of 11 to 1? If so was the natural causes death the 1? Was the person who died by natural causes the jury foreman? relevant?

Anything to do with answers to questions that the jury members gave during jury selection? Did any jury member fall asleep during the proceedings?

You say the verdict was not relevant .... if they had found in favour of the murderer they would still have been murdered yes?

Was the case racially charged or controversial in some other way?

Was it one person suing another or was this a class action of some sort?

Was the murderer found by the jury to be negligent in some way? Did his actions(the ones he was being sued for) cause any deaths?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, January 07, 2011 - 5:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant what was the subject of trial? No If so: money loss? injury? damage of property? contract not fulfilled? Other?
Did the murders occured because of something that happened during trial? Yesish If so: Because of what someone said? No Did? Yes Because of some evidence in the trial? Yope

And welcome to the forum!


Lots of thoughts on this so forgive sledgehammer approach..

Is the first of the deaths the one by natural causes? No Was anyone else present in court No subsequently No murdered YES or just the jury members?

Did the jury agree on the verdict unanimously ?Assume yes but irrel or by a majority? of 11 to 1? If so was the natural causes death the 1? Was the person who died by natural causes the jury foreman? No - as I recall it was Juror #12. relevant? Yope

Anything to do with answers to questions that the jury members gave during jury selection? No Did any jury member fall asleep during the proceedings? No

You say the verdict was not relevant .... if they had found in favour of the murderer they would still have been murdered yes? Yes

Was the case racially charged or controversial in some other way? No

Was it one person suing another This or was this a class action of some sort?

Was the murderer found by the jury to be negligent in some way? Yes but irrel Did his actions(the ones he was being sued for) cause any deaths? No
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Friday, January 07, 2011 - 5:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the action that provoked murders performed by: judge? plaintiff? defendant? jury member? anyone from public? witness?
Was the action that provoked murders normal in the civil trials? (I mean whether it was something that normally happens in court) or it was rather someting unexpected, extraordinary?
The murders occured after the trial, right? Or maybe prior to the trial?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, January 07, 2011 - 5:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the action that provoked murders performed by: judge? plaintiff? defendant? jury member? This (that is, the murders of the jury) anyone from public? witness?
Was the action that provoked murders normal in the civil trials? Yope (I mean whether it was something that normally happens in court) or it was rather someting unexpected, extraordinary? Noish
The murders occured after the trial, right? Of the jury, yes. Or maybe prior to the trial?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Friday, January 07, 2011 - 5:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, so there was an ordinary trial, with ordinary jury and one of those jury members did something during this trial, that resulted in 11 subsequent murders of the jury members, is that correct?

Was the jury member who performed this action also murderer or maybe that was the one who died naturally?

Was the jury member's action good for murderer? Or bad?

Were there any previous murder(s) of any other people involved? If so, was the trial somehow connected with those murders (this murder)?
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Friday, January 07, 2011 - 5:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the action that provoked murders relate to: evidence in the trial? something else said or seen during the trial? a bribe? any other type of illegal contact between the jurors and someone trying to influence the trial? Does it have anything to do with the way the jurors looked at the defendant? Reacted to him/her in some way?

Other murder victim(s): lawyer? judge? witness? victim? bailiff? other courtroom staff? audience member? law enforcement?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, January 07, 2011 - 6:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, so there was an ordinary trial, with ordinary jury and one of those jury members did something during this trial, Yes and... that resulted in 11 subsequent murders of the jury members, is that correct? Yes

Was the jury member who performed this action also murderer or maybe that was the one who died naturally? Died naturally, but the puzzle would still work if he had been murdered

Was the jury member's action good for murderer? Or bad? This

Were there any previous murder(s) of any other people involved? YES (just one) If so, was the trial somehow connected with those murders (this murder)? Yope

Did the action that provoked murders relate to: evidence in the trial? No something else said or seen during the trial? Yesish/Yope a bribe? No, but... any other type of illegal contact Yope between the jurors Yope and someone trying to influence the trial? No Does it have anything to do with the way the jurors looked at the defendant? No Reacted to him/her in some way? No

Other murder victim(s): lawyer? judge? witness? victim? bailiff? other courtroom staff? audience member? law enforcement? None of these
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Friday, January 07, 2011 - 6:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maybe the evidence in the civil trial could proove that the defendant was guilty of murder, maybe still not discovered? So he(she) had to eliminate jury members before they work it out?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, January 07, 2011 - 6:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maybe the evidence in the civil trial No could proove that the defendant was guilty of murder, Yesish maybe still not discovered? No... So he(she) had to eliminate jury members Yes before they work it out? Noish
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Friday, January 07, 2011 - 6:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it relevant that first murder of the jury member occured few years after the trial?
How much time elapsed between the first murder (not the jury member) and the trial? hours? days? months? years? 1? 3? 5? 10? Is this relevant at all?

Jury members knew (or even had opportunity to know) about the very first murder? Did the defendant think they had that knowledge?

Anything else (than murders) illegal/immoral happened?
Were jury members also guilty of something or were they just innocent victims?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, January 07, 2011 - 6:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it relevant that first murder of the jury member occured few years after the trial? Yes
How much time elapsed between the first murder (not the jury member) and the trial? hours? days? months? years? 1? 3? 5? 10? Assume 2-5 years Is this relevant at all? Yes

Jury members knew (or even had opportunity to know) about the very first murder? One of them did Did the defendant think they had that knowledge? Yesish

Anything else (than murders) illegal/immoral happened? Yes
Were jury members also guilty of something One of them was or were they just innocent victims? The rest of them were
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Friday, January 07, 2011 - 6:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The action that caused the 11 murders was performed by the one jury member, who knew about initial murder and was not innocent, correct?

That one jury member helped the defendant with the initial murder? Or his deed was of minor category? Was the guilt of jury member connected with the initial murder or with the trial?

Did something else relevant happen between initial murder and the trial? Between trial and the 11 murders?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, January 07, 2011 - 7:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The action that caused the 11 murders was performed by the one jury member, who knew about initial murder and was not innocent, correct? Yes

That one jury member helped the defendant with the initial murder? No Or his deed was of minor category? Comparatively, yes Was the guilt of jury member connected with the initial murder Yes or with the trial? Yope

Did something else relevant happen between initial murder and the trial? No Between trial and the 11 murders? Yes
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Friday, January 07, 2011 - 7:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The reason of 11 murders is: revenge? preventing punishment for initial murder? personal motives? Freeing society from dishonest jury members? Other?

The action that caused 11 murders was performed when: opening the trial, hearing witnesses, hearing parties, looking on material evidence, plaintiff's last speech, defendant's last speech, voting the verdict, announcing the verdict?

Did the murderer/defendant knew which jury member has the knowledge of the initial murder?

The details of the initial murder are relevant?
I am getting a bit stuck here... maybe a brief summary would help?
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Friday, January 07, 2011 - 7:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So one jury member knew about the other murder. Did he discuss it with the other jury members? Did the defendant think that he did? Did he threaten to discuss it with the other jury members?

Did one of the jurors know the defendant before the trial? Encounter him after it?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, January 07, 2011 - 10:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The reason of 11 murders is: revenge? preventing punishment for initial murder? Yesish/Yope personal motives? Freeing society from dishonest jury members? Other? But mainly this

The action that caused 11 murders was performed when: opening the trial, hearing witnesses, hearing parties, looking on material evidence, Yope to this, but mostly after the trial. No to rest. plaintiff's last speech, defendant's last speech, voting the verdict, announcing the verdict?

Did the murderer/defendant knew which jury member has the knowledge of the initial murder? NO - good q!

The details of the initial murder are relevant? No
I am getting a bit stuck here... maybe a brief summary would help? Recap at the bottom

So one jury member knew about the other murder. Yes Did he discuss it with the other jury members? No Did the defendant think that he did? No Did he threaten to discuss it with the other jury members? No, but getting OTRT

Did one of the jurors know the defendant before the trial? No Encounter him after it? Noish

RECAP:

A man committed a murder a couple of years before being sued in a civil case, which he lost. One of the jurors on the trial found out about the murder during the trial; afterwards, he did something, causing the man to kill 11 of the jurors years later. The man did not know which juror it was that did this, and in the end, the "guilty juror" was the only one who did not end up murdered.

You're getting really close to the answer - just a leap or two and you're there.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Friday, January 07, 2011 - 10:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Blackmail involved? Maybe the "knowing juror" worked out the murder while seeing evidence in the civil trial, later blackmailed the murderer/defendant. The murderer knew only that the person blackmailing him must be one of the jury, but he didn't know which one. So he started murdering one after another? Accidentally, the one who blackmailed him was the last one to be murdered and so he had time to die of natural causes. May it be?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, January 07, 2011 - 11:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Blackmail involved? Maybe the "knowing juror" worked out the murder while seeing evidence in the civil trial, later blackmailed the murderer/defendant. The murderer knew only that the person blackmailing him must be one of the jury, but he didn't know which one. So he started murdering one after another? Accidentally, the one who blackmailed him was the last one to be murdered and so he had time to die of natural causes. May it be? It may and it is...

**********SPOILER**********

The puzzle is taken from the plot of an episode of Monk - "Mr. Monk and the 12th Man." I will give the summation of the case, rather than the entire plot of the episode (which I recommend, by the way):

Our Villain (OV from now on) was sued by a handyman who had fallen off the roof during a renovation job and impaled his head on a pipe, causing mental damage. During the trial, the jurors visited the crime scene. One of them (Juror #12) wandered off, as he was a compulsive thief and gambler, and accidentally discovered the body of OV's first wife, whom he had murdered years before. The juror cut off one of the body's fingers as evidence before returning to the rest of the jury.

After the trial, in which OV was found at fault, the juror began to blackmail OV, threatening to go to the police. This went on for six years before Juror #12 began demanding more money. Rather than paying off, OV decided to kill the blackmailer. However, he did not know exactly who the blackmailer was; only that it was one of the jurors. So he began to murder the jurors one by one.

It took 11 murders before the case was solved and OV was caught; by chance, Juror #12 was the only one not to be murdered. It is therefore assumed for the purposes of this puzzle that he died of natural causes.

Thus endeth my long synopsis. Nice work everyone, notably the diligent Noel and the deductive (or should I say, deTECtive) Redwine. Case closed!

Now don't forget about my other two puzzles, as well as my next one, soon at the bottom.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Friday, January 07, 2011 - 11:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you for a wonderful puzzle. This was my first one to start asking questions and I liked it - both the puzzle and asking - very much.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, January 07, 2011 - 11:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Glad you enjoyed it!
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2011 - 2:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nice one Balin.

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Automatically activate URLs in message
Action: