| Author | Message | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 6484 Registered: 8-2001 |
End-of-life care in the U.S. is very expensive, which is part of why there's a whole movement dedicated to inducing patients to bow out gracefully. One particularly questionable tactic is sometimes used to get sick old people to sign a "DNR" directive, which means that they will not be resuscitated if they stop breathing. What is it? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 12508 Registered: 4-2010 |
Saying that the family will be suffering if the patient has to continually be cared for? So the DNR will "reduce the family's suffering"? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 6485 Registered: 8-2001 |
Balin (Balin) New member Username: Balin Post Number: 12508 Registered: 4-2010 Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2011 - 7:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Saying that the family will be suffering if the patient has to continually be cared for? That's not itSo the DNR will "reduce the family's suffering"? Ditto. I should add that this technique is particularly applicable to DNR orders. | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 2402 Registered: 7-2009 |
Who uses the technique: family members? insurance companies? medical care providers? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 6486 Registered: 8-2001 |
Noel (Noel) New member Username: Noel Post Number: 2402 Registered: 7-2009 Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2011 - 7:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Who uses the technique: family members? no insurance companies? nomedical care providers? no | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 6487 Registered: 8-2001 |
BLOOOPERRRRRRRRRRALERT!!!!!!!! Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2011 - 7:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Who uses the technique: family members? no insurance companies? no medical care providers? no The answer to 'medical care providers'? should be yes | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 2403 Registered: 7-2009 |
Do they frequently take the patients past other patients who are comatose/hooked up to tubes/otherwise on life support? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 6488 Registered: 8-2001 |
Noel (Noel) New member Username: Noel Post Number: 2403 Registered: 7-2009 Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2011 - 10:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Do they frequently take the patients past other patients who are comatose/hooked up to tubes/otherwise on life support? no, but you're very ORT | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 12509 Registered: 4-2010 |
Insurance costs relevant? Cost of the medical care itself? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 2404 Registered: 7-2009 |
Do the staff talk about patients that are on life support in front of them? to them? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 6492 Registered: 8-2001 |
Balin (Balin) New member Username: Balin Post Number: 12509 Registered: 4-2010 Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2011 - 11:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Insurance costs relevant?only as an underlying motivation for wanting patients to agree to DNR Cost of the medical care itself? ditto Noel (Noel) New member Username: Noel Post Number: 2404 Registered: 7-2009 Posted on Monday, March 14, 2011 - 1:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Do the staff talk about patients that are on life support in front of them?yesish or yope to them? ditto | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 12527 Registered: 4-2010 |
Length of time for palliative care/hospice care relevant? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 661 Registered: 1-2011 |
Do they offer cheaper insurances if someone signs the DNR consent? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 6496 Registered: 8-2001 |
Balin (Balin) New member Username: Balin Post Number: 12527 Registered: 4-2010 Posted on Monday, March 14, 2011 - 9:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Length of time for palliative care/hospice care relevant? no Redwine (Redwine) New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 661 Registered: 1-2011 Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 10:27 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Do they offer cheaper insurances if someone signs the DNR consent? no | ||
| Kdoc (Kdoc)
New member Username: Kdoc Post Number: 1176 Registered: 7-2001 |
is the thing they do: describing the way the patient might be hooked up to equipment? saying that they may be in pain? saying that they will die soon anyway even if resuscitation then intensive care is given? that it will just extend their discomfort? saying that the intensive care could otherwise be used for people with a greater chance of life? or younger people? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 6502 Registered: 8-2001 |
Kdoc (Kdoc) New member Username: Kdoc Post Number: 1176 Registered: 7-2001 Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2011 - 11:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) is the thing they do: describing the way the patient might be hooked up to equipment? saying that they may be in pain? saying that they will die soon anyway even if resuscitation then intensive care is given? that it will just extend their discomfort? saying that the intensive care could otherwise be used for people with a greater chance of life? or younger people? no to all, but your first guess is closest | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 2412 Registered: 7-2009 |
Do they somehow let the patients experience what being hooked up to certain equipment is like? Do they ask about friends or family members of the patient who have been on life support? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 6505 Registered: 8-2001 |
Noel (Noel) New member Username: Noel Post Number: 2412 Registered: 7-2009 Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2011 - 10:57 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Do they somehow let the patients experience what being hooked up to certain equipment is like? no or noish, but you're very ORTDo they ask about friends or family members of the patient who have been on life support? no | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 696 Registered: 1-2011 |
Could the same tactic be used to make a healthy young person to sign a DNR directive? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 6509 Registered: 8-2001 |
Redwine (Redwine) New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 696 Registered: 1-2011 Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 3:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Could the same tactic be used to make a healthy young person to sign a DNR directive? Possibly, in the unlikely event that health professionals were as eager for the deaths of young, healthy people as for sick, old ones. | ||
| Vesica (Vesica)
New member Username: Vesica Post Number: 394 Registered: 8-2001 |
Is this "encouragement" to sign a DNR presented to the ailing, elderly: Directly? Indirectly (such as overheard conversations, walking them through a certain ward)? Visual? Spoken to them? In writing? Specific choice of words used important? Do they make them sign any additional form? Life insurance relevant? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 6520 Registered: 8-2001 |
Vesica (Vesica) New member Username: Vesica Post Number: 394 Registered: 8-2001 Posted on Monday, March 28, 2011 - 11:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Is this "encouragement" to sign a DNR presented to the ailing, elderly: Directly? yes Indirectly (such as overheard conversations, walking them through a certain ward)? no Visual? yes Spoken to them? yes In writing? no Specific choice of words used important? no Do they make them sign any additional form? no Life insurance relevant? no | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 6528 Registered: 8-2001 |
HINT: You've established that the "encouragement" that health professionals gave patients to sign DNR's was something visual. So just figure out what! | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 2476 Registered: 7-2009 |
Is the visual encouragement an object? A person/people? | ||
| Vesica (Vesica)
New member Username: Vesica Post Number: 512 Registered: 8-2001 |
A picture? Do they show them the equipment for life support? Do they "pull a plug" in front of them? Show them someone on lift support? X-ray of broken ribs from CPR? Show them a bill for life-support care for, say, a month? Show them a chart of how long the average person spends on life support? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 6533 Registered: 8-2001 |
Noel (Noel) New member Username: Noel Post Number: 2476 Registered: 7-2009 Posted on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 11:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Is the visual encouragement an object? see below A person/people? see below Vesica (Vesica) New member Username: Vesica Post Number: 512 Registered: 8-2001 Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 3:32 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) A picture? see below Do they show them the equipment for life support? see below Do they "pull a plug" in front of them? no Show them someone on lift support? see below X-ray of broken ribs from CPR? no Show them a bill for life-support care for, say, a month? no Show them a chart of how long the average person spends on life support? no These suggestions are close enough for me to declare a ******** SPOILER ********** A bioethicist recently told me that her hospital was increasing the rate at which sick old people signed DNR orders by showing them videos of resuscitation. She did not say whether the hospital discouraged surgery by showing videos of surgery or discouraged abortions by showing videos of abortion. Many medical procedures & virtually all surgical procedures look pretty gruesome; how many people would have root canal surgery if dentist showed them videos? The hospital's bias is particularly evident in its failure to show sick old people videos of people dying of heart attacks without resuscitation! Please see the bottom of the page for my new, less gruesome puzzle! | ||
| Vesica (Vesica)
New member Username: Vesica Post Number: 532 Registered: 8-2001 |
Oh my word!! That's awful. So is that actually ethical? Great puzzle! I was excited to see you were still active here. You always have really unique puzzles, often based on facts. Very enjoyable! | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 6542 Registered: 8-2001 |
No, it's not ethical. But it's done! I'm glad you like my puzzles! I like your questions! | ||
| Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
New member Username: Gregoryuconn Post Number: 1024 Registered: 9-2010 |
Does anyone really WANT to get root canal? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 6545 Registered: 8-2001 |
Only to end the pain of the condition that makes you need one! |
