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Nimue (Nimue)
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Post Number: 6615
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Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 10:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm all for gay rights, so I hate to criticize any argument that might increase support for this worthy cause. But a really stupid one has been gaining popularity. What is it?
Twilightseeker (Twilightseeker)
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Post Number: 194
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Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 10:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this argument actually used in serious political discussion? Or is it something really silly like "everyone should have the right to screw up their life (i.e. with marriage)"?
Noel (Noel)
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Post Number: 2538
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Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 10:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the stupid argument compare gay people with another demographic group? Does it relate to inherent human rights?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Post Number: 6619
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Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 11:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Twilightseeker (Twilightseeker)
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Post Number: 194
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Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 10:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is this argument actually used in serious political discussion? yes Or is it something really silly like "everyone should have the right to screw up their life (i.e. with marriage)"? no==actuslly, I think that's not such a bad agrument!!
Noel (Noel)
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Post Number: 2538
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Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 10:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Does the stupid argument compare gay people with another demographic group? no Does it relate to inherent human rights? noish
Twilightseeker (Twilightseeker)
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Post Number: 198
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Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 11:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it have to do with population control?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Post Number: 6621
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Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 11:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Twilightseeker (Twilightseeker)
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Post Number: 198
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Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 11:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Does it have to do with population control? no
Twilightseeker (Twilightseeker)
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Post Number: 200
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Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 11:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything to do with the following areas? Military? Employment? Insurance? Children? War? Education? Culture?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Post Number: 6623
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Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 12:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Twilightseeker (Twilightseeker)
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Post Number: 200
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Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 11:42 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Anything to do with the following areas? Military? no Employment? no Insurance? yesish Children? no War? noEducation? noCulture? no
Biograd (Biograd)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 12:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it have to do with marriage? domestic partnerships?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Post Number: 662
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Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 2:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Employer-provided health options?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Username: Vesica

Post Number: 663
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Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 2:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Personally, I've always really liked the "Um, look at the current divorce rate. Why shouldn't more people join us in the misery of failed marriages?" argument. I mean clearly the biggest threat to marriage and "family values" are the folks that can already legally marry...
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 3:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The fact that a man can marry and divorce 57 women, but he can't marry and divorce one man? <i> I got that from The Political Machine 2008, which was a computer game where you run for president, and one of the debate questions you could encounter was when "Barry King Live" says two "very well-groomed men" came up to him and asked him that question and he wanted to know how you'd respond. Except I'm not sure if the number was 57, but it was pretty high.
Shez (Shez)
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Post Number: 549
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Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 11:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is the argument about gay men? or gay women? or both?

is it about adoption? tax? inheritance? pensions?

is it about a popular misconception about gay people?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 12:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Biograd (Biograd)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 12:39 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Does it have to do with marriage? no more than any other area of gay rights domestic partnerships? ditto
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 2:37 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Employer-provided health options? ditto
Vesica (Vesica)
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Username: Vesica

Post Number: 663
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Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 2:39 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Personally, I've always really liked the "Um, look at the current divorce rate. Why shouldn't more people join us in the misery of failed marriages?" argument. I mean clearly the biggest threat to marriage and "family values" are the folks that can already legally marry...
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Post Number: 1207
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Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 3:29 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
The fact that a man can marry and divorce 57 women, but he can't marry and divorce one man? no <i> I got that from The Political Machine 2008, which was a computer game where you run for president, and one of the debate questions you could encounter was when "Barry King Live" says two "very well-groomed men" came up to him and asked him that question and he wanted to know how you'd respond. Except I'm not sure if the number was 57, but it was pretty high.
Shez (Shez)
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Post Number: 549
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Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 11:05 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
is the argument about gay men? or gay women? or both? both

is it about adoption?ditto more than any other aspect of gay rights }tax? ditto no}inheritance? ditto pensions? ditto

is it about a popular misconception about gay people? no
Twilightseeker (Twilightseeker)
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Post Number: 211
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 1:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it have to do with possible exploitation of gay people?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Post Number: 6629
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 1:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Twilightseeker (Twilightseeker)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 1:08 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Does it have to do with possible exploitation of gay people?just with discrimination & gay rights in general
Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Post Number: 1181
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Posted on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 7:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

so there is an argument that supports gay rights? that you think is stupid? and it relates in some way to insurance?
does the argument imply that there is a benefit to society by giving gays the same rights as straights? a financial benefit?
is money relevant?does the argument imply that society will avoid a disbenefit by allowing gays to have similar rights?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 8:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 7:21 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
so there is an argument that supports gay rights? yes that you think is stupid?yes and it relates in some way to insurance? yes
does the argument imply that there is a benefit to society by giving gays the same rights as straights? yes a financial benefit? yes
is money relevant?does the argument imply that society will avoid a disbenefit by allowing gays to have similar rights? yes
Noel (Noel)
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Post Number: 2559
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Posted on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 9:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the argument that if gays can obtain insurance for their partners (through one partner's corporate insurance plan?), society as a whole will be less financially burdened with their care?

Is a specific type of insurance relevant? Medical? Dental? Vision? Prescription? Homeowners? Auto? Other?

Does it apply to an entire broad category of insurance (like those listed above)? Or to a sub-category within that insurance type?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Username: Nimue

Post Number: 6638
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Posted on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 10:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 9:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is the argument that if gays can obtain insurance for their partners (through one partner's corporate insurance plan?), society as a whole will be less financially burdened with their care? no

Is a specific type of insurance relevant? Medical? yes Dental? yes Vision? yes Prescription? yes Homeowners? noAuto? noOther? no

Does it apply to an entire broad category of insurance (like those listed above)? yes Or to a sub-category within that insurance type?a specific type us especially relevant
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 8:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If we lived in a society where homosexuality was considered the norm and heterosexuals were discriminated against, could the same argument be (poorly) applied to heterosexual rights movements?
Doriana (Doriana)
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Post Number: 1193
Registered: 12-2010
Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 9:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the argument concern male-male couples? female-female? both?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 9:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Post Number: 1226
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Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 8:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
If we lived in a society where homosexuality was considered the norm and heterosexuals were discriminated against, could the same argument be (poorly) applied to heterosexual rights movements? yes
Doriana (Doriana)
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Username: Doriana

Post Number: 1193
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Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 9:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Does the argument concern male-male couples? see next answer female-female? dittoboth? yes
Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Post Number: 1185
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Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2011 - 10:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is the argument that discrinitating against gays would somehow cause health insurance costs to rise? healthcare costs?

is life expectancy relevant? of gays? any specific disease(s) relevant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2011 - 11:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Post Number: 1185
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Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2011 - 10:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
is the argument that discrimitating against gays would somehow cause health insurance costs to rise? yeshealthcare costs? yes

is life expectancy relevant? not directly of gays? ditto any specific disease(s) relevant? no

**** SPOILER *************
I'm all for gsy rights, but that doesn't mean I have to buy into bad arguments for this good cause. Recent studies have shown that gays & lesbians have more health problems than straights. So the argument is being put forth that discrimination against gays is the cause (because it makes their lives more stressful) so we should end the discrimination in order to save money on their health care. What a dumb argument! First of all, it's not obvious that discrimination is the cause. Are men discriminated against? They have worse overall health than women. Equality for gays is a human rights issue, not a public health measure. If we found that discrimination was good for people's health (for example, because it made them work at jobs that involved physical exercise), that would hardly make discrimination ok. Will my new puzzle be ok? Check it out & see!

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