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Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 7:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It’s not really a scrund, since it’s more of an opinion than a belief, though it DOYD. Until recently, I thought one was more correct than the other and I think plenty of us would agree (plenty of them too). But in a few areas, it could be said that we are more “pure”. I suppose it DOYD…
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 8:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

DOYD = the usual LTPF acronym, "depends on your definition"?

I = you, Vesica?
One/the other = opinions? Beliefs? Ideas?
Us/Them = LTPF members? H/A/M? H/A/F? Mixed? Are there a certain amount of people included in "us" and "them"? Am I one of "us" or "them"?
We = Us?
Pure...in intentions?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 8:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

DOYD = the usual LTPF acronym, "depends on your definition"? Yep!

I = you, Vesica? Yes
One/the other = opinions? Beliefs? Ideas? None of these

Us/Them = LTPF members? Could be
H/A/M? H/A/F? Mixed? Mixed for age and sex, all human.
Are there a certain amount of people included in "us" and "them"? An exact number? No.

Am I one of "us" or "them"? I can't be certain - but based on what I do know - You're an "us".
We = Us? Yes

Pure...in intentions?No
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 8:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the "purity" have to do with a specific group of people divided by;
Race?
Country of origin?
I'm white and American. Does that make a difference to being "us" or "them"?
Age? I'm 25 (26 in a few weeks).
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 9:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

DOYD: The new phone, sponsored by the LTPF.

Gender relevant?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 11:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kayleetonkslupin
Does the "purity" have to do with a specific group of people divided by;
Race? No
Country of origin? Yesish
I'm white and American. Does that make a difference to being "us" or "them"? You are an "us".
Age? I'm 25 (26 in a few weeks).Not relevant.

Balin
DOYD: The new phone, sponsored by the LTPF. *snerk*

Gender relevant? Nope
Biograd (Biograd)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 12:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One was more correct than the other: a way of spelling a word? a way of pronouncing a word? a use of punctuation? a term for something?

Are differences between American and British English relevant? Between American English and some other English?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 4:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One was more correct than the other:
a way of spelling a word? This
a way of pronouncing a word? And this
a use of punctuation? No
a term for something? No

Are differences between American and British English relevant? YES
Between American English and some other English? No
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 4:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Noah Webster's changes to eliminate other cultural roots to words relevant? Trying to 'purify' the American language?
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 1:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

the what language?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 2:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Noah Webster's changes to eliminate other cultural roots to words relevant? Yesish
Trying to 'purify' the American language? Nope
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 2:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Any specific differences between Amerglish and Britglish relevant? Or just differences in general?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 2:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Any specific differences between Amerglish and Britglish relevant? Yes, as examples but...

Or just differences in general? ...the puzzle statement refers to an opinion, so more this.

Also, WOW. Could we please use "AmE" and "BrE"? Something about leaving in the "g" in English makes me wince when I look at your smoosh-words.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 7:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you think AmE was more correct than BrE? Vice versa?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 7:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you think AmE was more correct than BrE? No
Vice versa? YES

So, "more correct" how...and why (in a general sense) could it be argued that "we" are more pure??
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 8:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

well, I suppose I'm one of "them"..

is it that certain spellings are more pure because there is less foreign influence in AmE? eg color lacks the French influence of colour?

is it because modern AmE is closer to what the pilgrim fathers brought over than BrE?
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 9:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By the way, I am American (as in, "born and raised in America, to parents also born and raised in America) but my paternal grandfather was a British man (Cheshire, specifically) and because of the large presence of British members of my writing groups, including Emma, my best friend and writing partner, I do occasionally fall into using "s" rather than "z", adding in the "u" where most Americans would not, and I have a fondness for fish and chips, Cornish fudge and Cornish pasties (Emma's from Cornwall and I visited her there) and NO Woodworm (if you're out there) I do NOT put peanut butter and raisins on any of the above LOL...Does this change any answer about me???
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 9:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Also, AmE varies considerably in spelling and usage across the United States, due to various people's family history/the places they live (that is, New Englanders speak differently than Midwesterners, (and New Yorkers and New Jerseyans speak differently than both), Southerners are a different accent again (and it varies across the South, too), etc., someone from Northern California, like me, speaks differently to someone from Southern California, for example. the whole stereotypical "valley girl" thing comes from down there. And I know there's regional differences in BrE too, I just wanted to make the point that there's no such thing as an "American accent" (although the most typical one would no doubt be "Midwestern".)
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 9:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"AmE varies considerably in spelling and usage across the United States"
Um, usage - yes. But standard correct spelling - No, not so much. Otherwise our spellcheckers wouldn't work very well, would they?

I just wanted to make the point that there's no such thing as an "American accent" (although the most typical one would no doubt be "Midwestern".)
Well, YES. There is also no such thing as a "British accent" per se. But I question "Midwestern" as the most typical. I certainly don't speak like that and except for certain word usage - I have no regionally identifiable accent.

This one is pretty much done, but I have to get on the road as I'm travelling for the holiday. Will post a you-know-what late this evening.
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 9:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"I have no regionally identifiable accent."

- And that's what my friend Kelly, a linguist, defined as typical about Midwestern accent, lol. It's the one that doesn't sound typically "regional". My friend Berni, who lives in Ohio, has "no accent" to me (and neither do I, to her...my "accent" to those who'd be in a position to call it so is "Midwestern" with the smallest dash of New York apparently (my dad's fault) and some slang-ish things typical to N. California.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 2:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmm, I'm from New England, and can't pick out an accent from there. I don't consider myself to have an RIA (regionally identifiable accent), but I could be wrong.

Enjoy your holiday!
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 1:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Balin, there is most definitely a New England accent (albeit one with localized variations for some of the major cities), though of course, not everyone who lives there has it. But the thing about accents is that you don't notice them if you're from there, because everyone else there talks like you. I had no idea I had a southern accent as a child until years later when I found an old cassette tape of myself after living in Ohio for several years.

As has been mentioned above, Midwestern (particularly Midwestern in the strain of Ohio and Indiana, as opposed to Wisconsin and North Dakota) is usually considered to be the "American" accent. My roommate's linguistics prof told them that more movie extras (well, not just walk-on extras, but whatever you call the people who have just a couple of lines in a movie or TV show) come from Ohio than from any other state (not counting California, of course) because of the lack of a regionally discernible accent.

That said, it makes me laugh every time I hear that Ohioans have "no accent," because there are regional accents even within the state. There is most definitely at least a Cleveland accent, a Youngstown accent (heavily Pittsburgh influenced), a southern Ohio accent, and a Dayton accent (heavily Indiana influenced). Given that localized variation even within one state in the Midwest, the idea of there being any such thing as a standard unaccented American is highly questionable to me. But linguists do say that the Ohio/Indiana Midwestern way of speaking = unaccented American.
Twilightseeker (Twilightseeker)
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Posted on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 6:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Stepping in here. As a linguist I find all of this incredibly interesting. Carry on
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Twilightseeker, care to weigh in? The linguists I referenced above were linguists working at a university in Ohio, so I'd be curious to hear the take of a linguist from elsewhere.
Twilightseeker (Twilightseeker)
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Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 4:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Accent" is an incredibly variable term. SAE (Standard American English) is generally considered to be Mid-Western in origin, but this refers mostly to "broadcaster" English, i.e. what one generally hears on most news channels. One's interpretation of whether someone else has an accent or not depends on one's origins, of course. Many people think of their own dialect (regional or otherwise) as SAE, whether or not this is the case.
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2011 - 1:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

***** SPOILER *****

There is a common opinion, among Brits and Americans alike, that British English is more "correct". I certainly thought this. To my ear, British English just sounds more educated and I've seen plenty of people that adopt British spellings and pronunciations almost as an affect (which is a bit silly).

Reading "Origins of the Specious: Myths and Misconceptions of the English Language", I discovered that in some key areas, American English could actually be considered to be more pure. Someone mentioned Webster above and he does play a key role. For words like "color"/"colour" and "theater"/"theatre", the American English spellings are much closer to the English at the time of the colonies than British English. Johnson in Britain and Webster in the US both tried to bring about spelling reforms and modify the spellings of loan words from French. Thus color would become colour. The key issue is that the reforms went through in Britian and NOT in America. So for some of those differences (and others including fall vs. autumn), American English is the one less changed from the original.
Sapir (Sapir)
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Posted on Monday, April 25, 2011 - 2:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Now that was a nice one. Too bad I missed out on it.
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Monday, April 25, 2011 - 2:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well based on the comments above, we have quite a few folks around here who are interested in language, the origins of words, and how language evolves over time. Hopefully there will be more puzzles along this line!
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Monday, April 25, 2011 - 4:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

indeed we do! woubit seems to be a fine linguist...he not only told me why "courgette" and "aubergine" are the names used by Brits for the vegetables we Americans call "zucchini" and "eggplant" respectively, but where the names originated and why, and that "courgette" and "zucchini" both mean "little squash" in French and Italian respectively. Oh, and zucchini is plural in Italian. woubit is very clever. I still want to know where he has gone. I miss him.

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