[LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

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[LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:23 am

Another puzzle including a plumber, this might be easier. Based on own experience, both are HAM

Because Bert was a ridiculously incompetent plumber, John was arrested
Last edited by LemonCurry on Wed May 17, 2017 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby GalFisk » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:10 am

Professional plumber? Amateur? Did Bert plumb something relevant? Had John committed a crime? Had Bert? Did something leak? Break? Flood?
edit: need to be torn out? Or redone?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:44 am

Professional plumber? Yes Amateur?
Did Bert plumb something relevant? Well, tried to
Had John committed a crime? yes Had Bert? no
Did something leak? yes Break? yes Flood? not yet
edit: need to be torn out? Or redone? both
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby GalFisk » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:58 am

Did Bert try to plumb: a sink? A drain? A toilet? A sewer line? Water line? Water heater? Heat pump? Heating system? Faucet? Bathtub? Shower? Was he trying to: create a system? Modify a system? Repair a system? Has John committed a drug crime? Violent crime? Has John hired Bert?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:22 am

Did Bert try to plumb: a sink? A drain? A toilet? A sewer line? Water line? Water heater? Heat pump? Heating system? Faucet? Bathtub? Shower? A water pipe (more Details are not relevant)
Was he trying to: create a system? Modify a system? Repair a system? this
Has John committed a drug crime? Violent crime? This (it was murder as this is a lateral puzzle)
Has John hired Bert? no
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby GalFisk » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:27 am

Did the pipe break after Bert's repair attempt? Was a murder victim found? A weapon? Did water wash away something? Did something need to be torn apart or dug up in order to repair Bert's mistake? Had John hidden something relevant?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:34 pm

Did the pipe break after Bert's repair attempt? No, Bert was called because of the broken pipe
Was a murder victim found? no A weapon? yes
Did water wash away something? no Did something need to be torn apart or dug up in order to repair Bert's mistake? no
Had John hidden something relevant? yes
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby Doriana » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:24 pm

Had John hidden the murder weapon in the water pipe?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:08 pm

Had John hidden the murder weapon in the water pipe? No
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby GalFisk » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:11 pm

Did Bert make his repairs before the murder? During? After? Did John hide the weapon in a wall? Did he hide it while Bert was working on the pipes? Did Bert find the weapon? Did Bert do such a bad job that another plumber had to xome and redo it? Was the weapon found while fixing Bert's blunders? Is John's profesdion relevant? Motive for the murder? Type of weapon used relevant?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:16 pm

Did Bert make his repairs before the murder? During? After? this Did John hide the weapon in a wall? no Did he hide it while Bert was working on the pipes? possibly Did Bert find the weapon? no
Did Bert do such a bad job that another plumber had to xome and redo it? yes
Was the weapon found while fixing Bert's blunders? possibly, irrelevant
Is John's profesdion relevant? no Motive for the murder? no Type of weapon used relevant? not really, assume it was a revolver
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby GalFisk » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:22 pm

Did the other plumber find the weapon? Enable someone else to find it? Relevant where the plumbing in question was? Was it in a cellar? Was it inside a wall? Was it in some other rarely accessed place? Was it near the hidden weapon? Did the other plumber do the same things Bert did (except better, of course)? Did law enforcement search for the weapon?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:03 pm

Did the other plumber find the weapon? no Enable someone else to find it? no Relevant where the plumbing in question was? yes Was it in a cellar? no Was it inside a wall? yes Was it in some other rarely accessed place? Was it near the hidden weapon? yesish

Did the other plumber do the same things Bert did (except better, of course?)
yope - they were fixing the same issue, but there was one relevant difference

Did law enforcement search for the weapon? yes
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby Balin » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:05 pm

Is the exact weapon relevant? The murder victim?
Was the weapon something related to plumbing? Was it a tool of some sort? A wrench? A pipe?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:26 am

Is the exact weapon relevant? not really, we assume it was a revolver The murder victim? no
Was the weapon something related to plumbing? Was it a tool of some sort? A wrench? A pipe? no, see above
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby GalFisk » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:44 pm

Did the other plumber have to fix issues caused by Bert's blunder? Did Bert make the pipe leak: less? More? In different place(s)?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:09 pm

Did the other plumber have to fix issues caused by Bert's blunder? Did Bert make the pipe leak: less? More? In different place(s)?
no to all - Bert achieved nothing and damaged nothing regarding plumbing the broken pipe
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby GalFisk » Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:21 pm

Did Bert achieve something else? Damage something else? Fix the wrong pipe? Do nothing at all?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:55 am

Did Bert achieve something else? only that John was caught Damage something else? yesish Fix the wrong pipe? no but otrt Do nothing at all? no
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby Hobbsicle » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:23 am

Is it relevant that the pipe still leaked when he was done? Is there another pipe or plumbing fixture relevant? Was there further leaking or flooding that resulted in the find? Did whatever Bert did or didn't do help the law enforcement find the revolver?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby trebor » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:04 am

Was this in John's house? In another property he owned?

Did the other plumber try to get at the pipe a different way? Did he do something relevant before fixing the pipe? Did he have to repair any flooding first? Damage to the floor below? Did he have to turn on or off the water?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:24 am

Hobbsicle

Is it relevant that the pipe still leaked when he was done? Yes, for context
Is there another pipe or plumbing fixture relevant? no
Was there further leaking or flooding that resulted in the find? No
Did whatever Bert did yes or didn't do help the law enforcement find the revolver?

trebor

Was this in John's house? Yope, John lived in this house In another property he owned? no

Did the other plumber try to get at the pipe a different way? YES! (ish)
Did he do something relevant before fixing the pipe? No
Did he have to repair any flooding first? Damage to the floor below? Did he have to turn on or off the water? These are irrelevant
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby trebor » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:38 am

Is it relevant that John didn't own the house?

I know nothing about plumbing. Is it relevant through what material either plumber tried to access the pipe? Did both plumbers try to access the pipe from the same general area, but, say, one from below the pipe and one from above? Did the second plumber try to access the pipe from a different room than Bert did (like on the other side of a wall or something)? Did the second plumber have to do his work differently because of some blunder of Bert's? Did the second plumber discover something suspicious? Was he the one who called law enforcement?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:04 am

Is it relevant that John didn't own the house?
Something about the house is relevant. It is unlikely that John owned it.

I know nothing about plumbing. Is it relevant through what material either plumber tried to access the pipe? not for this puzzle

Did both plumbers try to access the pipe from the same general area, but, say, one from below the pipe and one from above? yope, otrt Did the second plumber try to access the pipe from a different room than Bert did yes! (like on the other side of a wall or something)? but noth this

Did the second plumber have to do his work differently because of some blunder of Bert's? no Did the second plumber discover something suspicious? no Was he the one who called law enforcement? no
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby GalFisk » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:14 am

Did Bert access the wrong pipe?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:43 am

Did Bert access the wrong pipe? yes, at least he tried to
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby GalFisk » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:30 am

Did Bert find any pipes? Did Bert claim to have repaired the pipe? Did Bert close, repair or patch the part of the house he opened?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:38 am

Did Bert find any pipes? yes Did Bert claim to have repaired the pipe? no
Did Bert close, repair or patch the part of the house he opened? no, but irrelevant for this puzzle
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby Hobbsicle » Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:39 am

Did the second plumber have to access the pipe where he did because Bert messed up? If Bert had also accessed the pipe where the second plumber did, would the revolver still have been found? Would there have been any reason to?

Is this an apartment building?
Was the revolver found inside? Outside? Underground? In the room where Bert tried to access the pipe? In the room where the second plumber accessed the pipe?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:40 am

Did the second plumber have to access the pipe where he did because Bert messed up? no If Bert had also accessed the pipe where the second plumber did, would the revolver still have been found? no Would there have been any reason to? Not sure what you mean, please rephrase

Is this an apartment building? yes
Was the revolver found inside? yes Underground? no In the room where Bert tried to access the pipe? not exactly, but close In the room where the second plumber accessed the pipe? no
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby trebor » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:13 pm

Did Bert do something that dislodged or otherwise moved the revolver? Did the second plumber? Had John hidden the revolver in his apartment? In somebody else's? In a wall of his apartment? Elsewhere in the building?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:38 am

Did Bert do something that dislodged or otherwise moved the revolver? no Did the second plumber? no Had John hidden the revolver in his apartment? yes In somebody else's? no In a wall of his apartment? irrel Elsewhere in the building? no
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby Hobbsicle » Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:39 pm

Ok, I think a timeline is in order:

John murders someone and hides a revolver in his apartment?
Then there is a pipe leak? Is the leak unrelated to the murder? Is it relevant how the leak is discovered?

Then Bert comes out and tries to fix it? But he is accessing the pipe from the wrong place? Or the wrong pipe?
Is he accessing from John's apartment? From a different apartment? From a different floor? Is it relevant where specifically he accessed it, or is "the wrong place" sufficient?
Whatever the case, the problem is not resolved, and Bert leaves?

Later, the leak is still evident, and a second plumber (Ernie) is called? Is it relevant how much later? Is it relevant how much damage was caused by the continued leak?
Ernie accessed a different pipe? Or the same pipe from a different location?
And he is in a different room in the same apartment? A different apartment? A different floor?
Does he fix the problem? Is it even relevant whether he fixes the problem or not?
Is the weapon discovered while he is there? After he leaves?
Is it discovered by the police? By Ernie? By someone else?

Does John do anything else relevant during the course of the events?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby Balin » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:09 am

If the leak IS related to the murder, was it caused by the revolver bullet? Was the bullet found? In the pipe?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:39 am

Hobbsicle

Ok, I think a timeline is in order:

John murders someone and hides a revolver in his apartment? yes
Then there is a pipe leak? yes Is the leak unrelated to the murder? yes Is it relevant how the leak is discovered? one aspect is relevant

Then Bert comes out and tries to fix it? yes But he is accessing the pipe from the wrong place? yesish Or the wrong pipe? yope, DOYD
Is he accessing from John's apartment?
yesish
From a different apartment? this too
From a different floor? and this Is it relevant where specifically he accessed it, or is "the wrong place" sufficient? it's relevant that the wrong place was in John's apartment
Whatever the case, the problem is not resolved, and Bert leaves? yes

Later, the leak is still evident, and a second plumber (Ernie) is called? yes Is it relevant how much later? no Is it relevant how much damage was caused by the continued leak? not for the puzzle
Ernie accessed a different pipe? same DOYD as above Or the same pipe from a different location? this is closer
And he is in a different room in the same apartment? A different apartment? this A different floor? and this
Does he fix the problem? yes Is it even relevant whether he fixes the problem or not? not really
Is the weapon discovered while he is there? After he leaves? irrel
Is it discovered by the police? this By Ernie? By someone else?

Does John do anything else relevant during the course of the events? yes

Balin


If the leak IS related to the murder, was it caused by the revolver bullet? n/a Was the bullet found? irrel In the pipe? no
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby GalFisk » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:03 am

Does Bert accesd the wrong section of the right pipe? Is the pipe vertical? Relevant? Does John ever move the weapon, after first hiding it? Is he afraid a plumber will find it?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:26 am

Does Bert accesd the wrong section of the right pipe? Yesish, getting closer
Is the pipe vertical? Yes Relevant? a little
Does John ever move the weapon, after first hiding it? possibly, not that relevant
Is he afraid a plumber will find it? yes
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby GalFisk » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:48 pm

Does Bert find any pipe? No pipe at all? Does he access a shaft? Does he access a place where the pipe has ended or diverted? Does John relevantly act on his fear? If so: before Bert comes? While Bert is there? After Bert leaves, but before he knows another plumber is coming? When he expects the other plumber? While the other plumber is there? After the other plumber leaves? Does John prevent any of the plumbers from doing their jobs properly?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:02 am

Does Bert find any pipe? Yes, but beware FA No pipe at all?
Does he access a shaft? Does he access a place where the pipe has ended or diverted? Yes!(ish)

Does John relevantly act on his fear? Yes If so: before Bert comes? While Bert is there? this After Bert leaves, but before he knows another plumber is coming? When he expects the other plumber? While the other plumber is there? After the other plumber leaves?
Does John prevent any of the plumbers from doing their jobs properly? Yes

There is at least one FA regarding Bert's plumbing work, which makes questions difficult to answer
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby GalFisk » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:19 am

Is Bert actually a plumber? Is Bert John in disguise? Does Bert believe he succeeded in doing the job he was supposed to do? Did John give Bert false information? Bribe Bert? Distract Bert?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:22 am

Is Bert actually a plumber? Yes Is Bert John in disguise? no
Does Bert believe he succeeded in doing the job he was supposed to do? no
Did John give Bert false information? Yope, doyd Bribe Bert? no Distract Bert? Yope

Edit: Remember that John had not called Bert
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby GalFisk » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:11 am

Did John pretend to be the one who had called Bert? Was Bert called by another tenant? By the landlord? By a maintenance or inspection person?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:10 pm

Did John pretend to be the one who had called Bert? no
Was Bert called by another tenant? In this puzzle, yes, and his name is Robert
By the landlord? By a maintenance or inspection person?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby GalFisk » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:11 pm

Does Robert also call Ernie? Does John relevantly interact with Robert?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:42 pm

Does Robert also call Ernie? yes Does John relevantly interact with Robert? no
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby Hobbsicle » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:31 am

So is the pipe Bert accesses actually a working water pipe in the building? A water pipe at all? Is the actual source of the leak further up the pipeline? And Burt only accesses a branch of the pipe further down? On a floor below?

Does Bert enter John's apartment? Does John do something as a result of Bert entering the apartment? Move the weapon?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:19 pm

So is the pipe Bert accesses actually a working water pipe in the building? A water pipe at all? Yesish, still FA
Is the actual source of the leak further up the pipeline? And Burt only accesses a branch of the pipe further down? On a floor below? Actually, it was a floor upstairs, but below would work too

Does Bert enter John's apartment? No!(ish)
Does John do something as a result of Bert entering the apartment? Yope, FA
Move the weapon? not relevantly
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby biograd » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:19 pm

So Bert accessed the pipe from within John's apartment? even though he didn't actually enter that apartment? but also accessed it from another apartment?
If so, did he access it from the other apartment after he tried accessing it from John's apartment? or before? Was the only relevant thing that Bert did (for this puzzle) to try and access the pipe from within John's apartment (i.e. he would be irrelevant if he had only gone straight to the other apartment)?
Did Ernie access the pipe from in John's apartment? another apartment? the same other apartment from which Bert accessed it at some point? If so, is this other apartment Robert's?

So John acted on his fear, but not by moving the revolver? Did he speak to Bert? to Ernie? If so, did he tell contradictory statements to the two plumbers? or did he say something to one plumber that the other could easily see was false? or that the landlord knew was false?

It has been said that John made a statement that may or may not be considered misleading, and that prevented one of the plumbers from doing his job. Did he not reveal the existence of a room within his apartment (such as a closet), from which it would have been easier to access the pipe? Was he asked whether he had also noticed a leak, in order to narrow down the location of the problem, and he said he hadn't when he had (or vice versa)? Was he asked by Ernie about what Bert had already done?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:27 am

So Bert accessed the pipe from within John's apartment? Well, with an ish to "accessed"
even though he didn't actually enter that apartment? yes
but also accessed it from another apartment? yes
If so, did he access it from the other apartment after he tried accessing it from John's apartment? or before? this, relevantly
Was the only relevant thing that Bert did (for this puzzle) to try and access the pipe from within John's apartment yope, it was the more relevant thing
(i.e. he would be irrelevant if he had only gone straight to the other apartment)? Yes, there would be no puzzle without Bert going to John's apartment
Did Ernie access the pipe from in John's apartment? no another apartment? yes the same other apartment from which Bert accessed it at some point? yes If so, is this other apartment Robert's? and yes

So John acted on his fear, but not by moving the revolver? yes
Did he speak to Bert? to Ernie? If so, did he tell contradictory statements to the two plumbers? or did he say something to one plumber that the other could easily see was false? or that the landlord knew was false? not to all

It has been said that John made a statement no, the "yopish false information" was not verbal
that may or may not be considered misleading, and that prevented one of the plumbers from doing his job. but yes

Did he not reveal the existence of a room within his apartment (such as a closet), from which it would have been easier to access the pipe? Was he asked whether he had also noticed a leak, in order to narrow down the location of the problem, and he said he hadn't when he had (or vice versa)? Was he asked by Ernie about what Bert had already done? No to all
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby biograd » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:50 am

Did the "yopeish access" from John's apartment involve looking into the apartment through a window/door? Did either plumber knock on the door of John's apartment when he was home and ask him to help them with something? If so, did the "information" he gave consist of refusing to help?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby GalFisk » Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:33 am

Is a false/decoy pipe relevant?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:25 am

biograd

Did the "yopeish access" from John's apartment involve looking into the apartment through a window/door?
not relevantly
Did either plumber knock on the door of John's apartment when he was home Bert, yes
and ask him to help them with something? no If so, did the "information" he gave consist of refusing to help?
yope

GalFisk

Is a false/decoy pipe relevant? no
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby trebor » Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:41 pm

Was the "information" John gave conveyed in written form?

Is the yopeish access to John's apartment going into a part of his ceiling, from the floor above, that would technically be considered part of his place? Did either of the plumbers actually gain access to John's apartment proper?

Did the information John provided prevent Bert from doing his job? Ernie? Both?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Tue May 02, 2017 7:26 am

Was the "information" John gave conveyed in written form? no

Is the yopeish access to John's apartment going into a part of his ceiling, from the floor above, that would technically be considered part of his place? no
Did either of the plumbers actually gain access to John's apartment proper? no

Did the information John provided prevent Bert from doing his job? yes Ernie? no Both?
Beware of FA - there was a "yope" to the false information
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby GalFisk » Tue May 02, 2017 2:34 pm

Yopefalse info: incomplete? Misleading? Technically correct, but wrong in practice? Partially correct?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Tue May 02, 2017 3:50 pm

Yopefalse info: incomplete? Misleading? Technically correct, but wrong in practice? Partially correct? FA - John was yopishly providing information, and it was definitely false
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby trebor » Thu May 04, 2017 9:14 pm

Did John fail to answer the door when Bert knocked/rang? Is the false information that he yopishly provided simply giving Bert the impression that he wasn't home?

Is it relevant why Bert knocked on John's door and Ernie didn't? Is knocking on John's door part of Bert's incompetency?

Did John do anything while Bert was working, the results of which were discovered when Ernie did his work? (Or, to ask the question another way, if John had been oblivious to there ever being a plumber there, would he have been found out?)

I just remembered that Bert accessed the pipe from the other apartment before going to John's. Did he leave his work uncompleted?

Is Robert relevant in any way other than that he called the plumbers? Is there a yet-to-be-discovered person involved in the puzzle?

Did John leave his apartment when either of the two plumbers were working? Did he leave the building?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Fri May 05, 2017 12:44 pm

Did John fail to answer the door when Bert knocked/rang? YES!
Is the false information that he yopishly provided simply giving Bert the impression that he wasn't home? and yes!

Is it relevant why Bert knocked on John's door and Ernie didn't? yes
Is knocking on John's door part of Bert's incompetency? yes, because...

Did John do anything while Bert was working, the results of which were discovered when Ernie did his work? (Or, to ask the question another way, if John had been oblivious to there ever being a plumber there, would he have been found out?) no

I just remembered that Bert accessed the pipe from the other apartment before going to John's. Did he leave his work uncompleted? Yes, because...

Is Robert relevant in any way other than that he called the plumbers? only Robert's apartment is relevant, not the man Robert
Is there a yet-to-be-discovered person involved in the puzzle? no

Did John leave his apartment when either of the two plumbers were working? Did he leave the building? not relevantly
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby GalFisk » Sat May 06, 2017 7:39 am

Did he leave his work incomplete because of incompetence? Was he unable to reach the spot he wanted? Would a more competent plumber be able to complete the work from the place where Bert failed? Did John understand that Bert was a plumber? That he only wanted to do some plumbing?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby trebor » Sun May 07, 2017 1:10 am

Was the plumbing problem initially only in Robert's apartment? Did Bert screw something up in Robert's place that affected John's? If Bert had been granted access to John's apartment would he have been able to fix any and all plumbing problems, including ones created by his incompetency? Relevant?

Was the mere fact that John was unwilling to let Bert into his apartment enough to arouse suspicion? Did Bert do anything relevant after knocking on John's door?

I'm assuming that the other relevant thing that John did wasn't "not answer the door". Correct assumption? Did he do anything relevant with the plumbing? Water in the apartment? Did he try to clean up or destroy any evidence of the murder, even if he didn't do anything with the gun?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Mon May 08, 2017 9:04 am

GalFisk
Did he leave his work incomplete because of incompetence? yes
Was he unable to reach the spot he wanted? Yes, but beware FA
Would a more competent plumber be able to complete the work from the place where Bert failed? Yes

Did John understand that Bert was a plumber? That he only wanted to do some plumbing? irrelevant

trebor

Was the plumbing problem initially only in Robert's apartment? yes Did Bert screw something up in Robert's place that affected John's? no
If Bert had been granted access to John's apartment would he have been able to fix any and all plumbing problems, including ones created by his incompetency? possibly, beware FAs Relevant? Yes, for context

Was the mere fact that John was unwilling to let Bert into his apartment enough to arouse suspicion? In this puzzle, yes
Did Bert do anything relevant after knocking on John's door? yes

I'm assuming that the other relevant thing that John did wasn't "not answer the door". Well, the other relevant thing was having killed someone...I think there is an FA
Correct assumption? Did he do anything relevant with the plumbing? Water in the apartment? Did he try to clean up or destroy any evidence of the murder, even if he didn't do anything with the gun? No to these

RECAP

What we know until now:

1. John has committed a murder and hidden the murder weapon in his apartment
2. Robert calls a plumber, Bert, to fix a leaking water pipe
3. Bert, an incompetent plumber, comes to Robert's Apartment, starts to work, leaves this work unfinished, and proceeds to John's Apartment upstairs (why?)
4. John does not answer the door, and Bert finds it suspicious
5. Ernie, another plumber, fixes the pipe without going to John's apartment.
6. The police finds the murder weapon in John's apartment, and arrests John for murder.
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby biograd » Wed May 10, 2017 10:10 pm

Was John not answering the door suspicious simply because there was other evidence of him being home (such as noise from up there, or a light on)? In other words, did Bert assume that anyone who was home would answer the door (as opposed to, for example, ignoring it to avoid solicitation or a neighbor with whom he had an argument)? Would he have found any of the other tenants ignoring a knock on the door suspicious too, or just John?

Did Bert know/believe that his incompetence would inconvenience John in some manner (e.g. threaten to leak water into his apartment, cut off his water supply, etc.)? Was he unable to complete the job at that time because he didn't have a tool he needed? because he needed to buy a part?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Thu May 11, 2017 6:47 am

Was John not answering the door suspicious simply because there was other evidence of him being home (such as noise from up there, or a light on)? Yes
In other words, did Bert assume that anyone who was home would answer the door (as opposed to, for example, ignoring it to avoid solicitation or a neighbor with whom he had an argument)?
Well, Yes, when there is a leaking water pipe
Would he have found any of the other tenants ignoring a knock on the door suspicious too,
under the same circumstances, yes or just John?

Did Bert know/believe that his incompetence would inconvenience John in some manner (e.g. threaten to leak water into his apartment, cut off his water supply, etc.)? Not relevantly (and of course Bert did not think he was incometent) Was he unable to complete the job at that time because he didn't have a tool he needed? nobecause he needed to buy a part? no
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby biograd » Sat May 13, 2017 8:51 pm

Aha, so Bert DID expect that John noticed the leak? but John's being able to notice the leak was independent of anything that he, Bert, did or didn't do?

Did Bert knock on John's door to ask John something about the leak? to inform John of something regarding the leak? to ask John to do something in order to test the pipe? because he thought that the leak was inside the wall of John's apartment, and he thought he could fix it more easily from up there?

Was Bert unable to fix the pipe because in the process of trying to fix it, he damaged something else and had to first fix that?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Mon May 15, 2017 7:09 am

Aha, so Bert DID expect that John noticed the leak? Yes, but beware FA
but John's being able to notice the leak was independent of anything that he, Bert, did or didn't do? Yes, but beware same FA

Did Bert knock on John's door to ask John something about the leak? to inform John of something regarding the leak? to ask John to do something in order to test the pipe? because he thought that the leak was inside the wall of John's apartment, and he thought he could fix it more easily from up there? this

Was Bert unable to fix the pipe because in the process of trying to fix it, he damaged something else and had to first fix that? no
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby biograd » Mon May 15, 2017 9:09 pm

Had Robert and John spoken previously about the leak? Did Robert tell Bert that John had also noticed the leak? that they had discussed the leak?

Is it relevant why Bert couldn't fix the pipe (besides the fact that he was incompetent)? or simply that he felt the need to knock on John's door at some point? is it relevant at all that another plumber had to return to actually fix the pipe?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Tue May 16, 2017 5:35 am

Had Robert and John spoken previously about the leak? Did Robert tell Bert that John had also noticed the leak? that they had discussed the leak? no to these

Is it relevant why Bert couldn't fix the pipe (besides the fact that he was incompetent)? it's relevant how he was showing incompetence or simply that he felt the need to knock on John's door at some point? yes is it relevant at all that another plumber had to return to actually fix the pipe? it's relevant that Ernie did not go to John's apartment
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby biograd » Wed May 17, 2017 3:29 am

LemonCurry wrote: is it relevant at all that another plumber had to return to actually fix the pipe? it's relevant that Ernie did not go to John's apartment


What I meant is, would the situation have been the same if Ernie hadn't existed at all--i.e. if Bert had, after first working in Robert's apartment and then knocking on John's door, had some kind of epiphany and realized how to fix the pipe from in Robert's apartment himself, and the story of the broken pipe ended there. I wasn't sure if it mattered that a second plumber came later.

As to how Bert showed his incompetence--did he do so in a manner other than the two ways we've already found out? By those I mean:
1) He didn't see how to fix the pipe from within Robert's apartment, even though Ernie's doing it later proves that it was possible.
2) Even after knocking on John's door, he was STILL unable to fix the pipe.

Is it relevant exactly how or why the pipe was leaking (in other words, if the pipe itself was cracked, if a fitting had become loose, if it was leaking where it connected to a fixture, etc.)?
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Wed May 17, 2017 5:40 am

LemonCurry wrote: is it relevant at all that another plumber had to return to actually fix the pipe? it's relevant that Ernie did not go to John's apartment


What I meant is, would the situation have been the same if Ernie hadn't existed at all--i.e. if Bert had, after first working in Robert's apartment and then knocking on John's door, had some kind of epiphany and realized how to fix the pipe from in Robert's apartment himself, and the story of the broken pipe ended there. I wasn't sure if it mattered that a second plumber came later.

in this case, the puzzle would work without Ernie, but it would read "because Bert was an absent-minded plumber..."

As to how Bert showed his incompetence--did he do so in a manner other than the two ways we've already found out? By those I mean:
1) He didn't see how to fix the pipe from within Robert's apartment, even though Ernie's doing it later proves that it was possible. it's one more detail of this I would like to read for the solution
2) Even after knocking on John's door, he was STILL unable to fix the pipe.

Is it relevant exactly how or why the pipe was leaking (in other words, if the pipe itself was cracked, if a fitting had become loose, if it was leaking where it connected to a fixture, etc.)? no
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby trebor » Wed May 17, 2017 5:42 am

Did Bert think that the leak originated in John's apartment? Did he think John would have reason to know of the leak? Did he confuse Robert with John, or vice versa? Or mix up their apartments?

In response to Hobbsicle on April 18th, you said yes when asked "Does John do anything else relevant during the course of these events?" What I was trying to get at was whether this relevant thing that John did was "fail to answer the door", or whether he did anything else after Ernie knocked on his door that helped lead to the discovery of his crime. (I'm not sure whether you'd consider not answering the door an action or not.)

Outside of what has already been established, is the only relevant thing Bert does call the police? Does he do anything important after knocking on John's door but before leaving the building? Does he go back to Robert's apartment?

I'm struggling to think of what FAs I might have, but I suppose that's often the case with those pesky buggers.
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat

Postby LemonCurry » Wed May 17, 2017 9:58 am

Did Bert think that the leak originated in John's apartment? Yes! Did he think John would have reason to know of the leak? Yes Did he confuse Robert with John, or vice versa? Or mix up their apartments?

In response to Hobbsicle on April 18th, you said yes when asked "Does John do anything else relevant during the course of these events?" What I was trying to get at was whether this relevant thing that John did was "fail to answer the door", or whether he did anything else after Ernie knocked on his door that helped lead to the discovery of his crime. (I'm not sure whether you'd consider not answering the door an action or not.)

Outside of what has already been established, is the only relevant thing Bert does call the police? Yes Does he do anything important after knocking on John's door but before leaving the building? Does he go back to Robert's apartment?

I'm struggling to think of what FAs I might have, but I suppose that's often the case with those pesky buggers.

No to rest, but we have it all together.

SPOILER

Robert noticed that on of the walls in his apartment was all wet, and called the emergency plumbing service.
Bert the plumber arrived and proceeded to tear up the wall. At one point, when you could already hear the leak, and it was only behind a thin layer of rockwool, Bert suddenly decided that the leak must be in the apartment upstairs!
(Robert, knowing nothing of plumbing, didn't protest, but the next day another plumber, Ernie, only shook his head and fixed the thing in a couple minutes.)

But John, the neighbour upstairs, was obviously hiding in his Apartment, as there was noise but he didn't answer the door. Bert found it suspicous that John didn't let the plumber in, in what he thought must be an emergency situation, and called the police. The police found a link from John to an unsolved murder case, searched the house, and found enough evidence (including the murder weapon) to arrest John for murder.


The incompetent plumber part once happened to me on a Halloween (hence the title). My neighbour upstairs was no murderer, but he was often not there and behaving suspiciously. Later there were rumors that he had been arrested for drug dealing (unrelated to the plumber story), but murder would fit better into a Lateral Puzzle...

Thanks everyone for playing!
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat [FIXED]

Postby Balin » Fri May 19, 2017 10:45 am

Brilliant puzzle. Not so brilliant plumber.
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Re: [LemonCurry] Threat or Treat [FIXED]

Postby trebor » Sat May 20, 2017 5:30 am

A very enjoyable puzzle.
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