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[WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:54 am
by WiZ
Why did a (conscientious) teacher intentionally give a binding failing grade, with a range of fictitious errors accounted for, to a group of students on a presentation that they had not yet given?

Caveat Earlispoilor

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:22 am
by hominid
Teacher=HAM? HAF?

Was the teacher trying to persuade the students of something? Confuse them? Was she trying to make a political point? A point about education? A point about the subject she was teaching? Relevant what she was teaching? Relevant what level?

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:29 am
by SurfingPikachu
Was the grade in fact the grade for the presentation or the whole course? Would it have positive, negative, mixed, or no consequences for the students? The teacher? Anyone else relevant?

Did the teacher have any misunderstanding? Think the students cheated? Think the students were late, never going to give the presentation, or had dropped out of the course? Trying to censor the presentation?

Did the students know about the grade? Do they want it? Accept it? Would a neutral observer say the teacher's action was fair? Understandable?

Any of the following relevant: school, course, presentation content, student age?

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:30 am
by WiZ
Hominid

Teacher=HAM? HAF? Yes/Yes/Irrel

Was the teacher trying to persuade the students of something? no Confuse them? no Was she trying to make a political point? no A point about education? no A point about the subject she was teaching? no Relevant what she was teaching? no Relevant what level? broadly

SurfingPikachu

I never did catch you, incidentally. I did not own a broad enough range of Nintendo devices.


Was the grade in fact the grade for the presentation or the whole course? the presentation Would it have positive, negative this , mixed, or no consequences for the students? The teacher? speculative territory here: mixed is most likely IMO Anyone else relevant? not directly

Did the teacher have any misunderstanding? yope Think the students cheated? no Think the students were late, never going to give the presentation, or had dropped out of the course? no Trying to censor the presentation? no

Did the students know about the grade? yes, they are told Do they want it? no Accept it? Yes Would a neutral observer say the teacher's action was fair? on the balance, I would say yes Understandable? yes

Any of the following relevant: school, course, presentation content, student age? Student age vaguely; no to rest

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:11 am
by hominid
Student age/level: primary/elementary school? Secondary/high school? College/university?

Was the presentation ever assigned? By the teacher? Were the students working on the presentation at the time that the teacher gave the grades? Did they ultimately give the presentations?

Were the grades punishments? Did the teacher dislike the students? Did the students do something wrong? Did the teacher think the students did something wrong?

Did the teacher know that the students had not yet given the presentation? Are they the regular teacher? A substitute? Did the teacher make up the "errors"?

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:19 am
by WiZ
Student age/level: primary/elementary school? no Secondary/high school? College/university? either of these two

Was the presentation ever assigned? yes By the teacher? yes Were the students working on the presentation at the time that the teacher gave the grades? irrelevant, strictly speaking, but likely no Did they ultimately give the presentations? no

Were the grades punishments? yope Did the teacher dislike the students? the teacher had no broad, extrinsic prejudice against them Did the students do something wrong? yes Did the teacher think the students did something wrong? yes

Did the teacher know that the students had not yet given the presentation? yope, explore Are they the regular teacher? yes A substitute? no Did the teacher make up the "errors"? yes

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:25 am
by hominid
Did the students plagiarize? Break some other school rule? Did they do something illegal? Skip school? Copy someone's work? Commit violence? Theft? Were all the students guilty of this?

Did the teacher think that some of the students had given the presentations and some hadn't? Did the teacher think that the students had done something worse than what they actually did? Was the teacher ever relevantly absent?

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:39 am
by WiZ
Did the students plagiarize? no Break some other school rule? yope to yesish Did they do something illegal? no Skip school? no Copy someone's work? no Commit violence? no Theft? no Were all the students guilty of this? yes

Did the teacher think that some of the students had given the presentations and some hadn't? no Did the teacher think that the students had done something worse than what they actually did? no Was the teacher ever relevantly absent? no

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:05 am
by hominid
Did they break a rule set by the school? By the teacher? Relationships relevant? Did they break a rule that exists at most schools? Would everyone consider it wrong?

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:13 am
by SurfingPikachu
The "errors" are supposed to be "errors made that justified the grade"? Would they be shown to the students? Parents? Other teachers? Go on record? Public record?

Did the teacher believe that the students deserve the failing grade? If so, were the errors made up to hide the true justification for the failing grade? If so, was the true justification related to the presentation? Something more serious than the fictitious errors?

Are the exact fictitious errors relevant? Or just relevant that they were fictitious?

Did the teacher mistake something else for the presentation? Think the students violated some (spoken or unspoken?) rule or constraint regarding the presentation? e.g. No dissecting the principal's dog for a Biology presentation

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:15 am
by GalFisk
Did the students get an unfairly high grade on another equally-important assignment or test? Did things come to light afterwards that would've resulted in a failing grade? But by then that grade could not be changed?

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:09 pm
by WiZ
Hominid

Did they break a rule set by the school? It wouldn't have been codified to that level of specificity By the teacher? no Relationships relevant? yes (in the broadest sense of 'relationships') Did they break a rule that exists at most schools? yes Would everyone consider it wrong? yes

SurfingPikachu

The "errors" are supposed to be "errors made that justified the grade"? yes Would they be shown to the students? yes Parents? Other teachers? Go on record? Public record? yes to all, although less relevantly

Did the teacher believe that the students deserve the failing grade? not necessarily If so, were the errors made up to hide the true justification for the failing grade? hard to give a non-misleading answer here. the teacher knew the 'errors' were fabricated, and would probably have owned up to it if questioned by the administration - but she had no ulterior motive to *necessarily* give the students a failing grade If so, was the true justification related to the presentation? no Something more serious than the fictitious errors? yes

Are the exact fictitious errors relevant? no Or just relevant that they were fictitious? yes

Did the teacher mistake something else for the presentation? no Think the students violated some (spoken or unspoken?) rule yes or constraint no regarding the presentation? yes, FA lurking e.g. No dissecting the principal's dog for a Biology presentation although nothing in this vein - the content of the presentation is not key here

GalFisk

Did the students get an unfairly high grade on another equally-important assignment or test? no Did things come to light afterwards that would've resulted in a failing grade? no But by then that grade could not be changed? no

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:30 pm
by biograd
Did the group of students skip class? possibly the class in which the assignment involving the presentation was given out? Did their chosen topic for the presentation clearly show that they had missed something critical (in other words, it was so unlike what was specified in the assignment that it's obvious they missed the point entirely)?

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:41 pm
by WiZ
Did the group of students skip class? no possibly the class in which the assignment involving the presentation was given out? Did their chosen topic for the presentation clearly show that they had missed something critical (in other words, it was so unlike what was specified in the assignment that it's obvious they missed the point entirely)? no

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:08 am
by hominid
Did the students work together to do the immoral thing? Or did they each do it independently? Did they do it at school? In class? Outside of school? In their homes?

Relationships: between classmates? Romantic relationships? Teacher-student? Family?

Are any of the students individually relevant? Or can we just think of "the students" as a group? Relevant how many there are?

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:54 pm
by SurfingPikachu
This wrong thing the students did:
Did they do it in the course of trying to work on their presentation? Was it witnessed by the teacher? If so, was there common knowedge between the teacher and students of the witnessing? Did the students have good or bad intentions?

Just to get it out of the way: any time travel or precognition involved? :P

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:25 pm
by WiZ
Hominid

Did the students work together to do the immoral thing? yes Or did they each do it independently? Did they do it at school? yes In class? yes Outside of school? In their homes? no to rest

Relationships: between classmates? Romantic relationships? Teacher-student? this Family? no to rest

SurfingPikachu

This wrong thing the students did:
Did they do it in the course of trying to work on their presentation? yesish Was it witnessed by the teacher? yes If so, was there common knowedge between the teacher and students of the witnessing? yes Did the students have good or bad this intentions?

Just to get it out of the way: any time travel or precognition involved? :P no

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:33 pm
by biograd
Did they ask for help on the topic of their presentation? in such a way that they weren't being upfront about the basis for their request? Like, for instance, they asked about the topic in a way that made it sound just like it was just out of curiosity, and therefore got the teacher to look up something for them that they should have looked up themselves?

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:53 pm
by WiZ
Did they ask for help on the topic of their presentation? no in such a way that they weren't being upfront about the basis for their request? Like, for instance, they asked about the topic in a way that made it sound just like it was just out of curiosity, and therefore got the teacher to look up something for them that they should have looked up themselves? this is not what happened

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:27 pm
by SurfingPikachu
The wrong thing the students did:
Was it done in the presence of classmates? During another group's presentation?

Was the intention to gain an advantage? In grade?In material goods or money? Sexual? Bullying? To make mischief?

Was it something that could be done in degrees? eg making just a little mischief might not result in an F. Was it premeditated?

Were the presentations scheduled? Or present-when-ready? Were they going to present soon? In minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks?

How long had it been since the presentations were assigned? Minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks? How many groups had presented? How many in total?

Were the students generally good or poor students? Were they generally mischievous or getting into trouble?

Was the teacher trying not to escalate the incident to parents or principal? Was the incident embarrassing or having potentially very severe consequences?

Are any of the following relevant? Classmates, other students, teachers, parents, principal? Is the exact wrongdoing relevant? Is the intention or execution relevant?

Was the grade bell-curved? ie not everyone can get an A even if they did excellent, there is some fixed distribution and your grade is only relative to other students

Any jokes, puns, plays on language, metaphors, or supernatural stuff in this puzzle?

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:27 am
by WiZ
The wrong thing the students did:
Was it done in the presence of classmates? yes During another group's presentation? no

Was the intention to gain an advantage? yes In grade? yope In material goods or money? no Sexual? no Bullying? To make mischief? there is an element of both of these

Was it something that could be done in degrees? no eg making just a little mischief might not result in an F. Was it premeditated? yes

Were the presentations scheduled? Or present-when-ready? this; relevant Were they going to present soon? yesish In minutes? Hours? Days? assume this Weeks?

How long had it been since the presentations were assigned? Minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks? How many groups had presented? How many in total? irrel to all

Were the students generally good or poor students? assume poor Were they generally mischievous or getting into trouble? yes

Was the teacher trying not to escalate the incident to parents or principal? this was not the intent Was the incident embarrassing or having potentially very severe consequences? yes to both (for whom?)

Are any of the following relevant? Classmates, other students, teachers, yes, no to rest parents, principal? Is the exact wrongdoing relevant? yes Is the intention or execution relevant? yes

Was the grade bell-curved? irrel ie not everyone can get an A even if they did excellent, there is some fixed distribution and your grade is only relative to other students

Any jokes, puns, plays on language, metaphors, or supernatural stuff in this puzzle? no

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:13 pm
by SurfingPikachu
"Was the incident embarrassing or having potentially very severe consequences?" I meant for anyone. Well since the answer is yes, I might as well ask to narrow it down: yes for the students, teacher, or other classmates? Also I would assume since the answer is yes, that the teacher would naturally try not to escalate the incident.

Also, does this satisfactorily answer the question of why the fictitious errors? (i.e., to avoid embarassment or severe consequences?)
And the failing grade is explained by the mischief/rule-breaking and its severity?

The presentations were present-when-ready and this was relevant? Was it crucial, in the sense that the situation could not have happened with scheduled presentations? Did the students do something that could be construed as the presentation or part of?

In my high school, the discipline master could make any student cry with just a look. I haven't experienced anything remotely mischievous later on as well. I feel like I am singularly disadvantaged in trying to tackle this question.

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:30 pm
by biograd
Is the "present when ready" aspect relevant because the students in question asked to present much earlier than they would have been expected to? such that it was quite clear that they wouldn't have had time to do a good job? or conversely, they waited until the last moment to present, even though the assignment was very easy?

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:12 am
by WiZ
SurfingPikachu

"Was the incident embarrassing or having potentially very severe consequences?" I meant for anyone. Well since the answer is yes, I might as well ask to narrow it down: yes for the students, teacher, these two, predominantly or other classmates? Also I would assume since the answer is yes, that the teacher would naturally try not to escalate the incident. The teacher's interests would have been served by escalating the incident, but perhaps not as well or as reliably.

Also, does this satisfactorily answer the question of why the fictitious errors? (i.e., to avoid embarassment or severe consequences?) No; these errors were cogs in a specific scheme, a greater plan which would not have worked without them
And the failing grade is explained by the mischief/rule-breaking and its severity? yesish

The presentations were present-when-ready and this was relevant? Was it crucial, in the sense that the situation could not have happened with scheduled presentations? correct Did the students do something that could be construed as the presentation or part of? no

Biograd

Is the "present when ready" aspect relevant because the students in question asked to present much earlier than they would have been expected to? no such that it was quite clear that they wouldn't have had time to do a good job? or conversely, they waited until the last moment to present, even though the assignment was very easy? n/a

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:28 pm
by biograd
Was the "greater scheme" that the teacher wanted the students to challenge the grade? or, conversely, did she expect that the students were poor enough academically that they wouldn't realize that the fake errors they were accused of making weren't actual errors (or weren't actually made)?

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:00 am
by SurfingPikachu
Is this meant to be poetic justice in some sense? e.g. The students made up facts so the teacher made up errors?

Was the teacher trying to "prove something"? e.g. In response to a perceived reputation, or because the students challenged or mocked her?

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:20 pm
by WiZ
Biograd

Was the "greater scheme" that the teacher wanted the students to challenge the grade? no or, conversely, did she expect that the students were poor enough academically that they wouldn't realize that the fake errors they were accused of making weren't actual errors (or weren't actually made)? no

SurfingPikachu

Is this meant to be poetic justice in some sense? e.g. The students made up facts so the teacher made up errors? no

Was the teacher trying to "prove something"? no e.g. In response to a perceived reputation, or because the students challenged or mocked her?

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:09 pm
by Balin
Had any students already given their presentations? Were the presentations peer-reviewed (by which I mean reviewed by the other classmates)? Were the grades dependent on reviews at all?

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:33 pm
by WiZ
Had any students already given their presentations? NO, but... Were the presentations peer-reviewed (by which I mean reviewed by the other classmates)? No Were the grades dependent on reviews at all? Only the teacher's

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:46 pm
by Balin
Were any students just about to give their presentations? In the process of presenting? Were any presentations split over more than one day?

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:55 pm
by WiZ
Were any students just about to give their presentations? In the process of presenting? Were any presentations split over more than one day? irrel to all - the presentations of other students do not factor into the solution

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:37 pm
by Balin
Hmm... had the scheming students already presented? Were they trying to present more than once?

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:21 pm
by WiZ
Hmm... had the scheming students already presented? No! Were they trying to present more than once? Quite the opposite

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:56 pm
by Balin
So they were trying to get out of presenting, correct? Did they claim they had already presented? Did they claim they were part of another student's group (or other students' groups)?

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:13 am
by WiZ
So they were trying to get out of presenting, correct? correct Did they claim they had already presented? yes Did they claim they were part of another student's group (or other students' groups)? no

We're getting close now.

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:06 pm
by Balin
Did they claim they'd presented on a day when a substitute teacher was present?

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:49 pm
by WiZ
Did they claim they'd presented yes on a day when a substitute teacher was present? no

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:35 pm
by Balin
Did they refuse to present, claiming they'd already presented?

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:01 am
by WiZ
Did they refuse to present, claiming they'd already presented? Yes, very good. Care to tease out the thought process from start to finish?

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:14 pm
by Balin
So the students claimed they'd already given their presentation and refused to present. Did the teacher decided that if they'd "already given their presentation," he therefore could grade it? Would the students be unable to dispute the errors because they would have to admit they were trying to get out of presenting?

Re: [WiZ] F for effort

PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:50 am
by WiZ
So the students claimed they'd already given their presentation and refused to present. Did the teacher decided that if they'd "already given their presentation," he therefore could grade it? Would the students be unable to dispute the errors because they would have to admit they were trying to get out of presenting? Indeed

***** SPOILER *****

The teacher, a young woman who was new to the job, was dealing with a disruptive and uncooperative class. During a week of scheduled class presentations, one group of boys tried to get out of doing the work by claiming to have already presented, telling the teacher she had mis-remembered and clearly lost the notes. The class backed them up. Wanting to avoid bringing the situation to the attention of the principal with no firm evidence, the teacher 'found' the graded report the next day, and handed it to the students, giving a failing grade with errors carefully accounted for. The students could not challenge this without indicting themselves, and accepted this grade as the lesser of two evils.


Congratulations, Balin, and thank you everyone for playing.

Re: [WiZ] F for effort [ACED]

PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:26 am
by Balin
Didn't realize the class backed them up. Good puzzle!

Re: [WiZ] F for effort [ACED]

PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:36 am
by WiZ
I'm not sure it was ever established, but I believe the solution works with or without that detail.