[Balin] New rules

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[Balin] New rules

Postby Balin » Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:40 pm

Jayden (H/A/M) drives a four-door Dodge, wears tight pants, and recently suffered an ACL tear.
What else is true about him...
and what is the rule that decides that?
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby SurfingPikachu » Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:05 am

So there is a rule governing Jayden? This rule specifies that he has to drive a four-door Dodge? Or would some other cars work, but not all cars? Make important? Model? Or some other property of the car?
For tight pants, it cannot be just normal pants? Or just tight shirts?
For ACL tear, it has to be the ACL? Would some other injuries work?
This rule arises due to Jayden's personality? Occupation? (Is he a sportsman? Celebrity?) Some decisions of his? Some life situation of his? Some arbitrary puzzle constraint?
Is his name relevant?
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby Balin » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:54 pm

So there is a rule governing Jayden? Yes This rule specifies that he has to drive a four-door Dodge? Or would some other cars work, but not all cars? This Make important? Model? Or some other property of the car? Could be any of this
For tight pants, it cannot be just normal pants? Or just tight shirts? Neither normal pants nor tight shirts fit the rule
For ACL tear, it has to be the ACL? An ACL tear Would some other injuries work? Yes
This rule arises due to Jayden's personality? Occupation? (Is he a sportsman? Celebrity?) (Neither of these could be his occupation) Some decisions of his? Some life situation of his? Some arbitrary puzzle constraint? This
Is his name relevant? Yes, his name also follows the rule
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby SurfingPikachu » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:21 pm

Does the rule involve language? (e.g. involves letters, syllables) Numbers?
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby Balin » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:23 pm

Does the rule involve language? (e.g. involves letters, syllables) Numbers? Letters
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby SurfingPikachu » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:01 pm

Would the puzzle statement work if translated to another language? Would the puzzle work but the puzzle statement has to be redesigned?

Which of the following are relevant?
Vowels? Consonants? Capital letters? Small letters? Shape of the letters? Curves? Straight lines? Topology of the letters? (e.g. number of "holes") Sequence of letters? Sequence of the alphabet? A=1, B=2, ...? ASCII/Unicode values? Counts? Ratios? Neighbouring letters? Two(or more)-letter units?

Relevant that you phrased it as "ACL tear" instead of "anterior cruciate ligament tear"?

Is it theoretically possible for me to solve this puzzle (guessing or otherwise) without ever asking you if something else is an instance of this rule? (e.g. because my asking is part of the rule)
Am I expected to ask you if random things are part of this rule?

Does this puzzle statement work?
"Jayden (H/A/M) has a four-door Dodge, tight pants, and an ACL tear."
Is it "wears tight pants" that fits the rule, or "tight pants" that fits the rule?

Is the rule a function that accepts a phrase and spits out yes or no?
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby Balin » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:47 pm

Would the puzzle statement work if translated to another language? Would the puzzle work but the puzzle statement has to be redesigned?

Which of the following are relevant?
Vowels? Consonants? Capital letters? Small letters? Shape of the letters? Curves? Straight lines? Topology of the letters? (e.g. number of "holes") Sequence of letters? Sequence of the alphabet? A=1, B=2, ...? ASCII/Unicode values? Counts? Ratios? None of these...
Neighbouring letters? Two(or more)-letter units? These two, but for the units, "more-than-two"

Relevant that you phrased it as "ACL tear" instead of "anterior cruciate ligament tear"? Yes

Is it theoretically possible for me to solve this puzzle (guessing or otherwise) without ever asking you if something else is an instance of this rule? (e.g. because my asking is part of the rule) Theoretically
Am I expected to ask you if random things are part of this rule? That was the plan, but you are free to spoil the plan if that is your preferred line of questioning

Does this puzzle statement work?
"Jayden (H/A/M) has a four-door Dodge, tight pants, and an ACL tear." Yes
Is it "wears tight pants" that fits the rule, or "tight pants" that fits the rule? The latter

Is the rule a function that accepts a phrase and spits out yes or no? Yes
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby biograd » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:44 pm

I have an idea...

Does he eat meat loaf? When he drives his four-door Dodge, does he prefer to do it in the fast lane? Is he a magazine writer? Does he have moose antlers on his wall?

Those were actually a lot harder to write than I thought. If this is right, it's going to be hard for people to coincidentally guess other ones.
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby SurfingPikachu » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:54 pm

So, a puzzle with the same rule could not be given in, say, French, German, Italian, or Spanish?

Which of the following are relevant? Words? Phrases? Pronunciations?

The following are instances of the rule? "Jayden", "four-door Dodge", "tight pants", "ACL tear"?
The following are not instances of the rule? "normal pants", "tight shirts", "sportsman", "Celebrity", "anterior cruciate ligament tear"?

Can an arbitrary string that is not an English word (e.g. "asdfghjkl") ever be an instance of the rule?
Which of the following are instances of the rule? "jAydEn"? "Jaden"? "Jason"? "Dodge"? "tightpants"? "tight pants"? "tight-pants"? "tights and pants"? "pants tight"? "tight pant"? "very tight pants"? "tight tight pants"? "tight"? "pants"?

Math: Let A, B, C, D, E, F be arbitrary English words such that:
A B is an instance of the rule
C D is an instance of the rule
E is an instance of the rule
F is an instance of the rule
Which of the following are always, sometimes, or never instances of the rule?
A?
A A?
B A?
A B A B?
A B C D?
A D?
AB? (without the space)
E E?
E F?

@biograd, eh all your examples except "magazine writer" fit an(other?) obvious rule
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby biograd » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:04 pm

@SurfingPikachu, you mean the fact that "TL" is in them? That's just a coincidence--and in one of the cases the TL itself is not part of the rule I actually used.
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby SurfingPikachu » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:09 pm

@biograd No, I meant the fact that each is a phrase with one letter in the same position in each word. :lol:
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby biograd » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:28 pm

Oh, you mean like meAt loAf, fAst lAne, and moosE antlErs? If so, that has even less to do with the rule I was thinking... It's interesting that "magazine writer" is the odd one out for both of these other rules. I can assure you even that one DOES follow the rule I was thinking of, though!
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby Balin » Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:00 am

So, a puzzle with the same rule could not be given in, say, French, German, Italian, or Spanish? Theoretically, it could

Which of the following are relevant? Words? Phrases? The former two Pronunciations?

The following are instances of the rule? "Jayden", "four-door Dodge", "tight pants", "ACL tear"? Yes
The following are not instances of the rule? "normal pants", "tight shirts", "sportsman", "Celebrity", "anterior cruciate ligament tear"? Right, they are not

Can an arbitrary string that is not an English word (e.g. "asdfghjkl") ever be an instance of the rule? Yes
Which of the following are instances of the rule?
"jAydEn"? "Jaden"? "tightpants"? "tight pants"? "tight-pants"? "tight pant"? "very tight pants"? "tight tight pants"? These are
"Jason"? "Dodge"? "tights and pants"? "pants tight"? "tight"? "pants"? These aren't

Math: Let A, B, C, D, E, F be arbitrary English words such that:
A B is an instance of the rule
C D is an instance of the rule
E is an instance of the rule
F is an instance of the rule
Which of the following are always, sometimes, or never instances of the rule? All of them, as if a word fits the rule, any phrase containing that rule will also fit

I have an idea...

Does he eat meat loaf? When he drives his four-door Dodge, does he prefer to do it in the fast lane? Is he a magazine writer? Does he have moose antlers on his wall? Yes to all. Biograd has it.

No, I meant the fact that each is a phrase with one letter in the same position in each word. This has nothing to do with the rule, and is just coincidental.
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby SurfingPikachu » Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:34 am

"Which of the following are always, sometimes, or never instances of the rule? All of them, as if a word fits the rule, any phrase containing that rule will also fit"

Erp, I meant, if A B = "tight pants" fits the rule and C D = "ACL tear" fits the rule", which of the following fits the rule?
"tight"? (Which is no)
"tight tight"?
"pants tight"? (Which is no)
"tight pants tight pants"?
"tight pants ACL tear"?
"tight tear"?
"tightpants"? (Which is yes)
"Jayden Jayden"?
But I was trying to ask generically in case the answers were due to some quirk of the specific examples.

"Yes to all. Biograd has it."
And the puzzle isn't spoiled, so... I'll continue? I am most intrigued and flummoxed!
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby Balin » Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:43 am

"Which of the following are always, sometimes, or never instances of the rule? All of them, as if a word fits the rule, any phrase containing that rule will also fit"

Erp, I meant, if A B = "tight pants" fits the rule and C D = "ACL tear" fits the rule", which of the following fits the rule?
"tight"? (Which is no)
"tight tight"? No
"pants tight"? (Which is no)
"tight pants tight pants"? Yes
"tight pants ACL tear"? Yes
"tight tear"? No
"tightpants"? (Which is yes)
"Jayden Jayden"? Yes
But I was trying to ask generically in case the answers were due to some quirk of the specific examples. My apologies.

"Yes to all. Biograd has it."
And the puzzle isn't spoiled, so... I'll continue? I am most intrigued and flummoxed! Thought I'd leave it going so you can keep guessing. This puzzle is still young.
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby Earnest » Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:11 pm

So I''l try even though english words are not my strong suit xD

if I had well understood if A is an instance of the rule, any sentence with A is an instance of the rule as well no matter the length right? But, if A B is an instance of the rule, a sentence with just A, or just B or A A, B B, is not necessarily an instance of the rule supposing that it doesn't contain other words that are instances of the rule, right? So, the rule is designed for single words more than for combinations of words, in that combinations of words are instances of the rule if a word composing them is an instance of the rule, right?

If so, I am sorry if I'll repeat some of the questions but take it as a recap. Let's reason slowly; is the rule mainly focused on

1) vowels? Consonants? A combination of both?

2)Are letters more important than words for the rule to be valid? Is the order of the letters within each word relevant? If there are more than one words like in ACL tear, is the order of the words relevant, I mean: ACL tear is an instance, but also tear ACL?

3)"Jason" is an instance right? Is "radon"?"Jadon"? "mason"? "qason"?

4) does the rule involve just letters in english? Or also in other languages? Is the order relevant?

5) When you answer our questions abut the fact that a single word is an instance of the rule or not, do you control letter by letter? The relationship between letters in a word? The number of letters in the word? The letters that the word contains? Are certain letters prohibited by the rule? If so, which one? ( list of letters).
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby Balin » Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:21 am

So I''l try even though english words are not my strong suit xD You're doing very well!

if I had well understood if A is an instance of the rule, any sentence with A is an instance of the rule as well no matter the length right? Right But, if A B is an instance of the rule, a sentence with just A, or just B or A A, B B, is not necessarily an instance of the rule supposing that it doesn't contain other words that are instances of the rule, right? Right, good q So, the rule is designed for single words more than for combinations of words, in that combinations of words are instances of the rule if a word composing them is an instance of the rule, right? True, although I did actually design the rule more for combinations of words

If so, I am sorry if I'll repeat some of the questions but take it as a recap. Let's reason slowly; is the rule mainly focused on

1) vowels? Consonants? A combination of both? Combination

2)Are letters more important than words for the rule to be valid? Yes Is the order of the letters within each word relevant? Yes If there are more than one words like in ACL tear, is the order of the words relevant, Yes I mean: ACL tear is an instance, but also tear ACL? "tear ACL" is NOT an instance. Good q

3)"Jason" is an instance right? No Is "radon"?"Jadon"? "mason"? "qason"? None of them

4) does the rule involve just letters in english? Or also in other languages? Only the English alphabet, but theoretically, words or phrases in other languages could fit Is the order relevant? Of letters? Yes

5) When you answer our questions abut the fact that a single word is an instance of the rule or not, do you control letter by letter? The relationship between letters in a word? The number of letters in the word? The letters that the word contains? I look for the "more-than-two letter units"; if I find one, it fits.
Are certain letters prohibited by the rule? Um... a word or phrase can contain any letter and fit the rule, but there are four letters that are not part of any unit that make a word or phrase fit. If so, which one? ( list of letters). Q, V, Y, Z
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby Earnest » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:47 am

well I am sorry, nut did bigoted already solved the rule? If not, is H/A/M an instance of the rule? Is it important the pronunciation of every word?

E.g. ACL tear...when you look if it is an instance, do you check first ACL and then tear? Or the other way round? Or, e.g. tight tear...is the check done by splitting the words like that: tig htt ear? or just checking the words each by each? Is the order of letters inside each "slice" relevant? Is their meaning? Is their pronunciation?

tight pants...so tight tight is not an instance...does it mean that pants is necessary for tight to be an instance of the rule? Of so, because of the division tig htp ants? For the link among the final words of tight and the initial letters of pants?

Let's take tight pants...let's write it as tightpants...is it necessary for the rule to be valid that a p follows a t in the union of the two? For instance ould it be tight party? If not, is it because of the letters "arty" after the p? Same questions if tight party is an instance of the rule.
Or again, were there less letters, e.g. tigh pants? or a different letter like tighs pants? In other terms...when there are more than one word is the connection between the final letter of the first and the first of the second vital for the rule to be valid? Does each unit have a finite meaning per se?

Have the more-than-two units the same number of letters? If I have well understood is not the same number necessarily, right? I mean...fast lane is an instance and the units are of more than two letters. Supposing that the splitting begin from the first letter "f", we have necessarily that the splitting is "fas" "tlane" or fast lane or "fastl" "ane"; which one? The same for "ACL tear": is the right splitting ACL tear or ACLt ear? So my questions are: is does the splitting in units necessarily begin with the first letter? Are the letters of the words displayed directly involved or the successive/previous letters (if so the successive/previous one?) in the alphabet? Are acronyms involved? Are numbers related to the displayed letters somehow involved?

Can mathematical formulas be part of the rule? E.g. a+b = c? or t+i+g+h+t = p+a+n+t+s? Within each unit is it important the order of the letters? E.g. ACL tear---> supposing it is split into ACLt ear: does each unit per se fit the rule? does ear? does ACLt? So tear ACL does not fit, right? Let's split into tea rACL...is the thing with respect to ACLt ear that makes tear ACL not fit, residing in tea? In rACL? in the meaning of them? In the order of the letters?

Is the rule also based on the yes and no answers? I mean do you answer yes and no to complete a scheme in order the rule to be satisfied? Is the rule simply "there are no rules"? Does the rule depend on the date/the hour in which you are answering? Does the rule, a part from the fact that you established that, depends on you? On your answers? Does the rule involves mirrors? Is the rule clearly visible without making modifications on the words and letters other than splitting them into units of more than two elements? I mean are both necessary words and letters for the rule to be valid the words and letters actually present in each word? e.g. in ACL tear are a c l t e a r? in this order? for the rule to be valid, which of those letters must not be changed? a c l t e a r? for the rule to be valid if a c l t is a unit per se which of the relationships among letters of the units is the most important for a? a and c? a and l? a and t?

Does the rule in general depend on something that varies? or is it a stable rule?
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby Balin » Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:49 am

well I am sorry, nut did bigoted already solved the rule? Assuming that should read "but did Biograd already solve the rule," Yes If not, is H/A/M an instance of the rule? It is not Is it important the pronunciation of every word? No

E.g. ACL tear...when you look if it is an instance, do you check first ACL and then tear? Or the other way round? I check both words individually, then check the combination of words to see if a sequence overlaps Or, e.g. tight tear...is the check done by splitting the words like that: tig htt ear? or just checking the words each by each? See previous, although you are right in that the units which determine the rule are three letters long. For "tight tear"
(which is not an instance), I'd check "tig," "igh," "ght," "htt," and so on
Is the order of letters inside each "slice" relevant? Yes Is their meaning? No Is their pronunciation? No

tight pants...so tight tight is not an instance...does it mean that pants is necessary for tight to be an instance of the rule? The word "Tight" is not an instance. The phrase"Tight pants" is Of so, because of the division tig htp ants? None of those are the exact sequence For the link among the final letters of tight and the initial letters of pants? Yes

Let's take tight pants...let's write it as tightpants...is it necessary for the rule to be valid that a p follows a t in the union of the two? In this instance, Yes, but "tp" alone is not the sequence For instance could it be tight party? Yes, but it could not be "tight penny" If not, is it because of the letters "arty" after the p? Same questions if tight party is an instance of the rule.
Or again, were there less letters, e.g. tigh pants? That wouldn't work or a different letter like tighs pants? Nor that In other terms...when there are more than one word is the connection between the final letter of the first and the first of the second vital for the rule to be valid? It's a three-letter sequence, so it could be last/first/second or second-to-last-/last-first Does each unit have a finite meaning per se? Yes, if I understand right

Have the more-than-two units the same number of letters? Yes, three If I have well understood is not the same number necessarily, right? It is the same number I mean...fast lane is an instance and the units are of more than two letters. Supposing that the splitting begin from the first letter "f", we have necessarily that the splitting is "fas" "tlane" or fast lane or "fastl" "ane"; which one? Neither, see above The same for "ACL tear": is the right splitting ACL tear or ACLt ear? Same answer So my questions are: is does the splitting in units necessarily begin with the first letter? See above Are the letters of the words displayed directly involved or the successive/previous letters (if so the successive/previous one?) in the alphabet? Directly involved Are acronyms involved? No(ish) Are numbers related to the displayed letters somehow involved? No

Can mathematical formulas be part of the rule? No E.g. a+b = c? or t+i+g+h+t = p+a+n+t+s? Within each unit is it important the order of the letters? YesE.g. ACL tear---> supposing it is split into ACLt ear: does each unit per se fit the rule? Not necessarily, but in this case... does ear? No does ACLt? Yes, actually So tear ACL does not fit, right? Right Let's split into tea rACL...is the thing with respect to ACLt ear that makes tear ACL not fit, residing in tea? In rACL? in the meaning of them? In the order of the letters? This

Is the rule also based on the yes and no answers? No I mean do you answer yes and no to complete a scheme in order the rule to be satisfied? If the sentence satisfies a rule, then Yes; otherwise No
Is the rule simply "there are no rules"? Does the rule depend on the date/the hour in which you are answering? Does the rule, a part from the fact that you established that, depends on you? On your answers? Does the rule involves mirrors? No to all of these
Is the rule clearly visible without making modifications on the words and letters other than splitting them into units of more than two elements? Yes I mean are both necessary words and letters for the rule to be valid the words and letters actually present in each word? Yes e.g. in ACL tear are a c l t e a r? Yes in this order? Yes for the rule to be valid, which of those letters must not be changed? a c l t e a r? C-L-T for the rule to be valid if a c l t is a unit per se which of the relationships among letters of the units is the most important for a? a and c? a and l? a and t? Again, C-L-T

Does the rule in general depend on something that varies? or is it a stable rule? Stable
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby Earnest » Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:21 pm

Are pairs of letters important? Like two consonants together or two vowels togheter? Or triplets?
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby SurfingPikachu » Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:59 pm

So, to summarise, any string containing CLT as a substring fits the rule? Also, presumably, TPA? And DEN?
For four-door Dodge would it be ORD or RDO?
For meat loaf is it ATL or TLO?
For fast lane is it STL or TLA?
For magazine writer is it NEW or EWR?
For moose antlers is it SEA or EAN?
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby Acridian9 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:31 am

I'll take a guess too!
Does he go hunting fearless foxes"? Does he eat cream cookies? Does he like watching team sports? Does he use graph logs in his work?
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby Balin » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:29 pm

Are pairs of letters important? Like two consonants together or two vowels togheter? Or triplets? Triplets

So, to summarise, any string containing CLT as a substring fits the rule? Also, presumably, TPA? And DEN? Yes to all three of these
For four-door Dodge would it be ORD or RDO? ORD
For meat loaf is it ATL or TLO? ATL
For fast lane is it STL or TLA? STL
For magazine writer is it NEW or EWR? EWR
For moose antlers is it SEA or EAN? SEA

I'll take a guess too!
Does he go hunting fearless foxes? Does he eat cream cookies? Does he like watching team sports? Does he use graph logs in his work? You've got it.
I think one more person and I'll spoil.
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby SurfingPikachu » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:48 pm

On my part I'm ok with you spoiling it. I cannot for the life of me come up with a single plausible hypothesis, while everyone and their moms are solving it without asking questions. :cry:
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby Enjay » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:40 pm

Is he a conjoined twin?

Edited to add another example to test my theory - would he use a metal axe? Or perhaps a magnesium spoon?
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Re: [Balin] New rules

Postby Balin » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:45 pm

Is he a conjoined twin? He is, which means I think you've got it too.

That's three.

****SPOILER****

Any statement about Jayden must contain one of the airport codes for the 40 busiest U.S. airports.

Well done everyone - Biograd, Acridian, and Enjay for the solves, and Earnest and Pikachu for the many questions.
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Re: [Balin] New rules (*ARRIVED*)

Postby SurfingPikachu » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:52 pm

Oh, turns out I was just utterly doomed from the start... :lol:
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Re: [Balin] New rules (*ARRIVED*)

Postby Earnest » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:26 am

Ok I would never get it. I was just thinking about acronyms but I would never ever think about US airports.

Very nice Balin!
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Re: [Balin] New rules (*ARRIVED*)

Postby biograd » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:48 pm

Finally! It seemed like this puzzle was on it's last two legs for a while. I figured I'd stop over here every once in a while and check on it. I'm glad I got it without being a FAT OLD GIT though! And who called me bigoted? :-)

As to how I got it so quickly, it helps that I've had stopovers in both CLT and ORD in the past year, and had the opportunity of going through DEN once though I avoided it. When I saw this was by Balin, and I deduced (from things that were probably said on the old board, so the newbs might not know) that he probably has been through CLT as well, I figured that was the solution.

This was probably a bit unfair for those who haven't traveled much through the US, but well, it was solved soon enough anyway.
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Re: [Balin] New rules (*ARRIVED*)

Postby Balin » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:03 pm

While I have been through CLT my usual airport for travel to/from college was RDU.
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Re: [Balin] New rules (*ARRIVED*)

Postby biograd » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:35 pm

Same for me. When I can't get a direct flight from RDU I prefer to go through CLT rather than through any of the other "hubs" because it makes one leg very short.
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Re: [Balin] New rules (*ARRIVED*)

Postby Balin » Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:01 pm

My one time at CLT was also a stopover. And the one time I didn't fly out of RDU, I flew out of GBO. (Greensboro)
Balin
 
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