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[IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:42 pm
by irishelk
Those who participated in the live Skype puzzle session already know this one, but I thought I'd post it for everybody else. We should do another one of those.


The prey is better than the predator, but the solution is worse than the problem.

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:02 pm
by SurfingPikachu
Does the solution refer to the prey? The predator?
Does the problem refer to the prey? The predator?
Does the solution involve introducing a predator to an ecosystem to solve the problem of reducing the population numbers of the prey?
Is the predator a rabbit? A bird? An animal? A plant? A fungus? A microorganism?

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:06 pm
by Earnest
solutio = solution to survive? solution for the prey to be better than the predator?

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:20 pm
by Balin
Tacking onto the above:
Is the prey a rabbit? A bird? An animal? A plant? A fungus? A microorganism?

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:22 pm
by peter365
As a participant in the Skype session I can say that this puzzle is a really good one and worth sticking with folks.

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:23 pm
by SurfingPikachu
Further tacking onto Balin's tacking:
Is the predator or prey a human? *AHEM*

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:36 am
by irishelk
SurfingPikachu

Does the solution refer to the prey? Yes. The predator? No.
Does the problem refer to the prey? Yope to yesish.The predator? No.
Does the solution involve introducing a predator to an ecosystem to solve the problem of reducing the population numbers of the prey? No.
Is the predator a rabbit? A bird? This. An animal? A plant? A fungus? A microorganism?


Earnest

solutio = solution to survive? No. solution for the prey to be better than the predator? No.


Balin

Tacking onto the above:
Is the prey a rabbit? A bird? Yes. An animal? A plant? A fungus? A microorganism?

No to rest, though I'm taking this as a challenge to make a puzzle about fungi, and challenge accepted.


peter365

As a participant in the Skype session I can say that this puzzle is a really good one and worth sticking with folks. Thank you Peter!


SurfingPikachu

Further tacking onto Balin's tacking:
Is the predator or prey a human? *AHEM* :lol: No. I'm going to wait a bit before I pull that dirty trick again. :twisted:

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:02 pm
by SurfingPikachu
The prey is a bird and the predator is also a bird? Is the prey in question the relevant prey of the predator in question, and the predator in question is the relevant predator of the prey in question?

When you say they are a bird, do you mean they are a particular bird, or a particular species of bird? Are they different species of birds?

The prey is a solution to... how to feed the predator?
The problem is... to find a use for the prey? To cull their numbers?

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:47 am
by Earnest
so, if the prey is better than the predator, the problem is meant to be "the problem for the predator"? To somehow bridge the gap with the prey?

Prey = predator = bird? Do we refer to the same bird which can be both predator and prey depending on the situation? Are eggs involved? Bird = a wild bird? A "pet"?

solution worse than problem: meaning that applying the solution a greater problem than the original one is created? A greater risk? If so risk to die? Risk to be injured? Risk to be captured? Risk to become the prey? Is there a unique solution to the problem? Is the solution to be found referred to the prey?To the predator? To both?

prey better than the predator: supposing that prey is different than the predator...first of all...is the prey been chased by the predator? Been hunted? Can the predator be a prey as well? Are prey and predator here used to highlight that the prey is a "victim" of the predator? Or that usually one bird is considered a "predator" and the other a prey?

better = better in escaping a danger? Better for solving the specific problem they need to face? Are prey and predator actual real birds having to face a problem whose solution for one of the two is worse than the problem? Or the problem is for us to find a solution to the puzzle? Can the puzzle be rephrased as: why, even though the prey is better than the predator, the solution is worse than the problem?

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:02 pm
by irishelk
SurfingPikachu

The prey is a bird and the predator is also a bird? Yes. Is the prey in question the relevant prey of the predator in question, and the predator in question is the relevant predator of the prey in question? Yes.

When you say they are a bird, do you mean they are a particular bird, or a particular species of bird? Species. Are they different species of birds? The predator and prey are, yes.

The prey is a solution to... how to feed the predator? No.
The problem is... to find a use for the prey? No. To cull their numbers? Noish.


Earnest

so, if the prey is better than the predator, the problem is meant to be "the problem for the predator"? No. To somehow bridge the gap with the prey? No.

Prey = predator = bird? The predator is not the same as the prey, but both are birds. Do we refer to the same bird which can be both predator and prey depending on the situation? No. Are eggs involved? No. Bird = a wild bird? Yes to yesish. A "pet"? No.

solution worse than problem: meaning that applying the solution, a greater problem than the original one is created? Yes. A greater risk? No.. If so risk to die? Risk to be injured? Risk to be captured? Risk to become the prey? No to all. Is there a unique solution to the problem? Yes. Is the solution to be found referred to the prey? Yes. To the predator? Somewhat. To both?

prey better than the predator: supposing that prey is different than the predator...first of all...is the prey been chased by the predator? Not in the context of the puzzle. Been hunted? Same. Can the predator be a prey as well? Not relevantly. Are prey and predator here used to highlight that the prey is a "victim" of the predator? Yes. Or that usually one bird is considered a "predator" and the other a prey? Probably the former more than the latter.

better = better in escaping a danger? No. Better for solving the specific problem they need to face? Yes, but beware FA. Are prey and predator actual real birds having to face a problem whose solution for one of the two is worse than the problem? No on several counts. Or the problem is for us to find a solution to the puzzle? Yope, depends on what you mean by "us." Can the puzzle be rephrased as: why, even though the prey is better than the predator, the solution is worse than the problem? Yes, but more completely it would be, 'How is the prey better than the predator, and how/why is the solution worse than the problem?'

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:30 am
by Earnest
so, are the words "better" and "worse" with respect to predator and prey or with respect to human being? I mean...is it something like both predator and prey are at risk of extinction and the solution for saving both of them create an environmental disaster? Or again, one of the two species (e.g. the predator) is at risk of extinction (so that "prey" is better = can better adapt) and the solution to save it risk to compromise the existence of another species? Or the prey is at risk so one solution could be to reduce the number of predators damaging some other species?

Does the problem concern the existence of one of the two species? The cohabitation of the two? Does the problem refer to the whole species or just to some "elements" of both types of birds?

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:33 pm
by SurfingPikachu
Extreme times call for extreme measures, and someone had to do the dirty work, so, are the predator or prey in the following SurfingPikachu list of non-Pokemon birds that have fallen to my thundershock? :lol:

Albatross, blackbird, bluebird, budgie, buzzard, canary, cassowary, chicken, cockatoo, cormorant, crane, crow, cuckoo, dove, duck, eagle, egret, emu, falcon, finch, flamingo, goose, hawk, heron, hummingbird, ibis, jay, kingfisher, kite, kiwi, kookaburra, lark, lorikeet, magpie, mallard, macaw, mynah, nightingale, oriole, osprey, ostrich, owl, parrot, partridge, peacock, pelican, penguin, pheasant, pigeon, plover, puffin, quail, raven, rhea, robin, seagull, starling, stork, swallow, swan, swift, tern, thrush, toucan, turkey, vulture, warbler, woodpecker, wren

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:40 pm
by irishelk
Earnest

so, are the words "better" and "worse" with respect to predator and prey or with respect to human being? Humans. I mean...is it something like both predator and prey are at risk of extinction and the solution for saving both of them create an environmental disaster? No.
Or again, one of the two species (e.g. the predator) is at risk of extinction (so that "prey" is better = can better adapt) and the solution to save it risk to compromise the existence of another species? No. Or the prey is at risk so one solution could be to reduce the number of predators damaging some other species? No.

Does the problem concern the existence of one of the two species? Noish. The cohabitation of the two? No. Does the problem refer to the whole species or just to some "elements" of both types of birds? The latter.


SurfingPikachu

Extreme times call for extreme measures, and someone had to do the dirty work, so, are the predator or prey in the following SurfingPikachu list of non-Pokemon birds that have fallen to my thundershock? :lol:

Albatross, blackbird, bluebird, budgie, buzzard, canary, cassowary, chicken, cockatoo, cormorant, crane, crow, cuckoo, dove, duck, eagle, egret, emu, falcon, finch, flamingo, goose, hawk, Predator is this (eagle or osprey also work). heron, hummingbird, ibis, jay, kingfisher, kite, kiwi, kookaburra, lark, lorikeet, magpie, mallard, macaw, mynah, nightingale, oriole, osprey, ostrich, owl, parrot, partridge, peacock, pelican, penguin, pheasant, pigeon, Prey is this. plover, puffin, quail, raven, rhea, robin, seagull, starling, stork, swallow, swan, swift, tern, thrush, toucan, turkey, vulture, warbler, woodpecker, wren

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:07 pm
by Earnest
do predator and prey use to crowd a specific place? In a specific part of the year? If so, summer?
Is a particular common habit of pigeon and eagle (predator) relevant? A different habit? If an habit of the two is involved, is the habit referred to a situation in which the birds are flying or a situation in which the birds are "on the ground"? Can we assume that just two birds (a predator and a prey) are involved?

Eagles, as far as I know, don't have much contacts with human being...so are contacts with humans involved for both predator and prey?

Does the problem concern human being? If so, is the problem related to the fact that the prey is hunted by the predator? Is the problem related to the fact that pigeons often try to obtain food by humans in cities?

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:27 pm
by irishelk
Earnest

do predator and prey use to crowd a specific place? The prey, yes. In a specific part of the year? No. If so, summer?
Is a particular common habit of pigeon and eagle (predator) relevant? Yope. A different habit? If an habit of the two is involved, is the habit referred to a situation in which the birds are flying or a situation in which the birds are "on the ground"? Both could be involved, not really relevant. Can we assume that just two birds (a predator and a prey) are involved? You mean the individual birds? No, more than two involved.

Eagles, as far as I know, don't have much contacts with human being...so are contacts with humans involved for both predator and prey? Yes, in different ways for each.

Does the problem concern human being? Yes. If so, is the problem related to the fact that the prey is hunted by the predator? No. Is the problem related to the fact that pigeons often try to obtain food by humans in cities? Yesish.

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:44 pm
by Hobbsicle
So the problem is related to the pigeons in some way? Where they are? What they are doing? How many there are? A reaction they cause? Is the problem experienced exclusively by humans? By the pigeons? By the predators?

Are the predators part of the problem? A result of the problem? Part of the solution? A result of the solution?

Is the solution enacted by humans? Directly to/with the pigeons? Are the pigeons themselves the solution? Or what they did with the pigeons?

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:11 am
by irishelk
Hobbsicle

So the problem is related to the pigeons in some way? Yes. Where they are? Yes, primarily. What they are doing? How many there are? A reaction they cause? All of these can be involved. Is the problem experienced exclusively by humans? Yes. By the pigeons? No. By the predators? No.

Are the predators part of the problem? No. A result of the problem? Yope. Part of the solution? Yope to yesish. A result of the solution? No.

Is the solution enacted by humans? Yes. Directly to/with the pigeons? It is done to the pigeons in a way, DOYD of "directly." Are the pigeons themselves the solution? Yesish, explore. Or what they did with the pigeons? Yesish, but not in the way you mean.

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:30 pm
by Acridian9
Is the problem driving away pigeons from a town?
Is the solution frightening the pigeons in some way? by the screech of an hawk?

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:08 pm
by irishelk
Acridian9

Is the problem driving away pigeons from a town? Yes, or any particular area.
Is the solution frightening the pigeons in some way? Yes! by the screech of an hawk? Yope, explore!

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:02 am
by Acridian9
Does the solution include real, flesh and blood, hawks? If yes, more than one?
Does it include loudspeakers? A kite? A drone?

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:24 pm
by irishelk
Acridian9

Does the solution include real, flesh and blood, hawks? No, good question. If yes, more than one?
Does it include loudspeakers? Yes! A kite? No. A drone? No.

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:55 pm
by Acridian9
So, the solution was to frighten the pigeons by playing the screech of an hawk? All day? During the night? Which is annoying for humans?

Does "better" refers to the fact that the preys are real while the predators aren't?

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:52 pm
by irishelk
Acridian9

So, the solution was to frighten the pigeons by playing the screech of an hawk? Yope: that was a solution...All day? During the night? Timing irr. Which is annoying for humans? Not exactly, but this is relevant.

Does "better" refers to the fact that the preys are real while the predators aren't? No.

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:39 pm
by Acridian9
Was the solution "worse" in the sense that pigeons got used to whatever was frightening them?

In the solution part there are no real predators involved....and in the "better" part? Are there real preys/predators involved? Specific ones?
Guano relevant to the "better" part?

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:35 pm
by irishelk
Acridian9

Was the solution "worse" in the sense that pigeons got used to whatever was frightening them? No with a slight ish.

In the solution part there are no real predators involved....and in the "better" part? Correct. Are there real preys/predators involved? There are real prey, fake predators, and fake prey. Specific ones? No more specific than what you've already discovered.
Guano relevant to the "better" part? No.

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:53 pm
by irishelk
**********************RECAP to keep this one moving along

The prey is better than the predator, but the solution is worse than the problem.


The prey is pigeons, the predator is hawks. The problem is that the pigeons congregate in an unwanted place, and the solution is to scare them away somehow.

There are no real live hawks involved in this story. There is, at one point, the call of a hawk being played over a loudspeaker to frighten the pigeons. This is a solution, however, it's not the one referred to in the puzzle statement.

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:14 pm
by GalFisk
Does the solution scare the birds away? Hurt them? Kill them? Is the solution dangerous to humans? Annoying? Does the solution involve animals? Noise? Odor? Dead pigeons? Does it involve attracting them to someplace else? Relevant why they want to keep pigeons away from this place? Is something specific that pigeons do relevant? If so: eat? Crap? Flap? Scream? Fly? Walk? Flock? Nest? Attack?

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:10 pm
by irishelk
GalFisk

Does the solution scare the birds away? Yes. Hurt them? Kill them? Not to rest.
Is the solution dangerous to humans? No. Annoying? Yes.
Does the solution involve animals? Yope. Noise? Yes. Odor? Dead pigeons? Does it involve attracting them to someplace else? No. Relevant why they want to keep pigeons away from this place? No.
Is something specific that pigeons do relevant? Yesish. If so: eat? Crap? Flap? Scream? This! Fly? Walk? Flock? Nest? Attack?

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:08 am
by GalFisk
Does the solution involve pigeon screams? Do they have a warning scream that makes them fly away? If so, is that what's being played?

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:30 pm
by Acridian9
Are pigeons better because they can make more sounds than hawks?

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures

PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:23 pm
by irishelk
GalFisk

Does the solution involve pigeon screams? Do they have a warning scream that makes them fly away? If so, is that what's being played? Nice one. Entirely close enough for a

**************************SPOILER

To keep pigeons away from certain buildings or public areas, you will sometimes hear the calls of hawks and falcons being periodically played over the PA. Apparently, though, this doesn't have much effect on the pigeons, who continue strutting around, stealing fries and pooping. Some places, instead, use the sound a pigeon itself makes when it is wounded. This seems to be more of a deterrent--apparently they have a stronger instinct to avoid a place if another bird has just been injured there.

The prey as worse than the predator in creating a sound that will scare other prey birds away. But the solution is worse than the problem, because now any visitor to the area must endure the screaming sounds of an animal dying in pain. I'd prefer a few pigeons, honestly.

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures {SOLUTION PROBLEMATIZED}

PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:56 pm
by peter365
Nice to hear this one again , it was really entertaining in our skype session.

Hee Hee I like the word Problematized.

Re: [IrishElk] Extreme Measures {SOLUTION PROBLEMATIZED}

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:44 am
by irishelk
Thank you!

As someone who studies literature, I get to hear people use it all the time with completely straight faces.