[invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle

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[invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:46 pm

The Master says, “You cannot call it a water bottle”.

What does Yoshi do?
Last edited by invisiblemimsy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby Earnest » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:27 pm

Was the "it" actually a water bottle? Did it resemble a water bottle? Relevant the reason why he cannot call it like that? Was it an "exercise" of will/spirit? Don"t know why sounds like star wars xD

Master = was he part of a sect?

Can he call it in another way?
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Re: You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:41 pm

Earnest wrote:Was the "it" actually a water bottle? YES Did it resemble a water bottle? YES Relevant the reason why he cannot call it like that? YES Was it an "exercise" of will/spirit? NO Don"t know why sounds like star wars xD

Master = was he part of a sect? HE WAS A BUDDHIST

Can he call it in another way? YOPE
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby Balin » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:48 am

Is this a koan of some sort? Is it an amusing koan (an "ice cream koan," as TV Tropes calls it)?
Does Yoshi call it something else? Does he ask the Master a question?
Is there water in the bottle? Is there anything else in the bottle? Is the bottle empty?
Does the bottle have a lid or cap?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby wwhere » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:28 am

Was the bottle empty? Could he call it "Empty bottle"?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:13 am

Balin wrote:Is this a koan of some sort? Is it an amusing koan (an "ice cream koan," as TV Tropes calls it)? LOL, NOT AN ICE-CREAM KOAN, BUT IT IS A KOAN
Does Yoshi call it something else? NOISH Does he ask the Master a question? NO
Is there water in the bottle? YES Is there anything else in the bottle? NO Is the bottle empty? NO
Does the bottle have a lid or cap? NO
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby wwhere » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:29 am

Well, silly eyes. Sorry for asking what balin had already asked!

is the master thinking of a specific name for the bottle? is it the name of a water mass? river? sea? ocean? is he looking at the bottle as containing everything else, except the water inside it?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:39 am

wwhere wrote:Was the bottle empty? NOISH Could he call it "Empty bottle"? NOISH
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby LemonCurry » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:42 pm

Could one not call it a water bottle because there was mostly air in the bottle? Because the bottle was not made of water? Because the bottle could not hear the call?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:17 pm

LemonCurry wrote:Could one not call it a water bottle because there was mostly air in the bottle? Because the bottle was not made of water? Because the bottle could not hear the call?Good questions, but No to all
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby wwhere » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:31 pm

It seems we cross-posted here. Did you catch my last batch of questions?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:41 pm

wwhere wrote:It seems we cross-posted here. Did you catch my last batch of questions?


Oh, sorry! Coming up...
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:45 pm

wwhere wrote:Well, silly eyes. Sorry for asking what balin had already asked!

is the master thinking of a specific name for the bottle? NO is it the name of a water mass? NOriver? sea? ocean? is he looking at the bottle as containing everything else, except the water inside it?NO, BUT OTRT
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby Balin » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:55 pm

Is it relevant how much water is in the bottle?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:01 pm

Balin wrote:Is it relevant how much water is in the bottle?NO
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby biograd » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:14 pm

Is it relevant that the liquid in the bottle is not pure H2O? Could a bottle of ultra-pure distilled water be called a "water bottle" by this same standard? Could a bottle containing orange juice be called an "orange juice bottle"? Could a pond be called a "pond of water"?

Alternately, is it relevant the "universe" of things that such a bottle could possibly be used to contain? In other words, any bottle that could liquids other than water isn't inherently a "water bottle", it become such when we choose to put water inside it. By that standard, a true "water bottle" would be a bottle that is permeable to all liquids other than water, such that water is the only thing it could possibly hold.
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:35 pm

biograd wrote:Is it relevant that the liquid in the bottle is not pure H2O? Could a bottle of ultra-pure distilled water be called a "water bottle" by this same standard? Could a bottle containing orange juice be called an "orange juice bottle"? Could a pond be called a "pond of water"?All irrel

Alternately, is it relevant the "universe" of things that such a bottle could possibly be used to contain? In other words, any bottle that could liquids other than water isn't inherently a "water bottle", it become such when we choose to put water inside it. By that standard, a true "water bottle" would be a bottle that is permeable to all liquids other than water, such that water is the only thing it could possibly hold. YES, very much OTRT
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby biograd » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:00 pm

So was the solution to call it "a bottle partly filled with water" or "a bottle containing water" as opposed to "a water bottle"?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:48 pm

biograd wrote:So was the solution to call it "a bottle partly filled with water" or "a bottle containing water" as opposed to "a water bottle"? NO
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby Balin » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:40 pm

Is the solution to call it something at all? To not call it something?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:53 pm

Balin wrote:Is the solution to call it something at all? YOPE To not call it something? YOPE
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby Balin » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:36 pm

Does Yoshi call it something? Not call it something?
Is the word "bottle" involved in the solution? The word "water"?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:09 pm

Balin wrote:Does Yoshi call it something? NONot call it something? YES, SVV OF "CALL"
Is the word "bottle" involved in the solution? NO The word "water"?NO
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby GalFisk » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:39 pm

Miming relevant? Sign language? Writing? Facial expressions? Body language?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby Balin » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:38 pm

Does Yoshi drink the water?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:09 pm

GalFisk wrote:Miming relevant? Sign language? Writing? Facial expressions? Body language?NO TO ALL
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:09 pm

Balin wrote:Does Yoshi drink the water? NO
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby GalFisk » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:47 pm

Is there air in the bottle? Is the bottle material relevant? If so: glass? Plastic? Ceramic? Wood? Metal? Rubber? Is it called a [something]-bottle? Is it called a bottle at all? Is it called "the object wrongly called a water bottle"? Is it called "that thing we talked about"? Is it referred to in soms other roundabout way? In a shorthand way? In an especially logically and/or semantically correct way?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:38 pm

GalFisk wrote:Is there air in the bottle? YES Is the bottle material relevant? NO If so: glass? Plastic? Ceramic? Wood? Metal? Rubber? Is it called a [something]-bottle? NO Is it called a bottle at all? YES Is it called "the object wrongly called a water bottle"? NO Is it called "that thing we talked about"? NO Is it referred to in soms other roundabout way? NO In a shorthand way? NO In an especially logically and/or semantically correct way? NO
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby GalFisk » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:06 am

Does he just call it a bottle? A bottle of something? A bottle that does something? Relevant what the water is for?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:04 am

GalFisk wrote:Does he just call it a bottle? OTRTA bottle of something? A bottle that does something? Relevant what the water is for?YOPE, SVV OF "FOR"
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby Balin » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:08 pm

Does he not "call" it a bottle, but does he "say" it is a bottle?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:04 pm

Balin wrote:Does he not "call" it a bottle, but does he "say" it is a bottle? Let's assume "Call" and "say" are synonyms, as perhaps are other words (speak, announce etc). He does not say/call/etc it is a bottle, no. I think there is a FA here.
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby GalFisk » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:31 pm

Does he speak? Does he use his voice?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:49 pm

GalFisk wrote:Does he speak? NODoes he use his voice? NO
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby GalFisk » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:44 pm

Does he write? Gesture? Mime? Point? Draw? Not do anything?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:59 pm

GalFisk wrote:Does he write? NO Gesture? YESISH Mime? YESISH Point? NODraw? NONot do anything? NO
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby GalFisk » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:50 am

Use sign language? Relevant where the water is from? How it ended up in the bottle?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:06 pm

GalFisk wrote:Use sign language? Relevant where the water is from? How it ended up in the bottle?no to all
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby GalFisk » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:16 pm

Make a sign not from sign language? Imitate the master? Did he do this in order to: obey the master? Annoy the master? Communicate? Be silly? Be sarcastic?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:30 pm

GalFisk wrote:Make a sign not from sign language? yesishImitate the master? noDid he do this in order to: obey the master? yope, not the main reason thoughAnnoy the master? Communicate? Be silly? Be sarcastic?no to the rest
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby GalFisk » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:40 pm

Relevant why the master said he could not call it a water bottle? Did the master call it a water bottle? Did the master use this signish to describe it? Animals relevant? Imitation?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:00 pm

GalFisk wrote:Relevant why the master said he could not call it a water bottle? YES Did the master call it a water bottle? NO Did the master use this signish to describe it? NO, BUT HE COULD HAVE DONE,
IN THE PAST PERHAPS
Animals relevant? NO Imitation? NO
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby Balin » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:56 am

Did someone ever, during the course of the puzzle, attempt to call it a water bottle? Attempt to describe it using words? Using another form of communication?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:07 pm

Balin wrote:Did someone ever, during the course of the puzzle, attempt to call it a water bottle? No Attempt to describe it using words? No Using another form of communication? YES
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby biograd » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:43 pm

Did the master hold the actual bottle up and show it to Yoshi? and ask "what do you call this?"?

Does the inaccuracy of the term "water bottle" refer to the theoretical possibility that one could at some time use it to carry something other than water? or more the empirical difficulty of determining whether at the present moment it contains water before opening it and somehow testing the contents?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:41 pm

biograd wrote:Did the master hold the actual bottle up and show it to Yoshi? No, but explore and ask "what do you call this?"? No,
he just says, "You cannot call it a water bottle".


Does the inaccuracy of the term "water bottle" refer to the theoretical possibility that one could at some time use it to carry something other than water? This is very much OTRT or more the empirical difficulty of determining whether at the present moment it contains water before opening it and somehow testing the contents? No
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby KingLouie » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:26 pm

Is the physical state of the water in the bottle relevant? If solid, then it would be called ice...
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:29 pm

KingLouie wrote:Is the physical state of the water in the bottle relevant? If solid, then it would be called ice... No, but you’re thinking in the general direction I think
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby KingLouie » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:49 pm

Is the water consumable, or is it poisonous/mixed with something that is not consumable?
Relevant that "water bottle" carries the connotation of drinkability?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:26 am

KingLouie wrote:Is the water consumable, Yes or is it poisonous/mixed with something that is not consumable?
Relevant that "water bottle" carries the connotation of drinkability? No
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby KingLouie » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:39 am

Is the bottle underwater?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:46 am

KingLouie wrote:Is the bottle underwater?
Haha, now there's a lateral thought! But no.
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby KingLouie » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:51 am

Is the fact that there is no cover relevant? Could it be then called by a different term?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:46 am

KingLouie wrote:Is the fact that there is no cover relevant? Yes, explore Could it be then called by a different term? OTRT
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby KingLouie » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:56 am

Significance of 'bowls' in Buddhism relevant?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:33 am

KingLouie wrote:Significance of 'bowls' in Buddhism relevant?No
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby KingLouie » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:03 am

A vase relevant? Is what the bottle-ish container might be used for relevant?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:22 pm

KingLouie wrote:A vase relevant? No Is what the bottle-ish container might be used for relevant? No
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby Balin » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:29 pm

Is the container always uncovered? Does a cover for the container exist? If so, a cap? A lid?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:44 pm

Balin wrote:Is the container always uncovered? YesDoes a cover for the container exist? NoIf so, a cap? A lid?

Imagine a tall-ish bottle which is narrow at the neck. No lid. (This is mostly irrel tho)
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby KingLouie » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:09 am

Vow of silence relevant?
Where the container actually is relevant?
Is it on display?
In something?
Used for anything relevant?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:19 pm

KingLouie wrote:Vow of silence relevant? No
Where the container actually is relevant? Yesish
Is it on display? No
In something? No
Used for anything relevant? Yesish
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby biograd » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:25 pm

Was the relevant question at what point a cup becomes a bottle? If you imagine gradually deforming a cup, at some point it must become a bottle. I imagine many people would say that point is when there is a top on it (or one that could be put on it), so if you have lost the top to the bottle, then maybe it becomes an unusual cup instead.
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:40 pm

biograd wrote:Was the relevant question at what point a cup becomes a bottle? If you imagine gradually deforming a cup, at some point it must become a bottle. I imagine many people would say that point is when there is a top on it (or one that could be put on it), so if you have lost the top to the bottle, then maybe it becomes an unusual cup instead. No, but laterally, you’re in the right ballpark.
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby KingLouie » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:46 pm

"not on display" = not visible, or just not visible as to make it one's primary focus?
Is the container part of a statue assembly? Part of a water-gathering/well assembly?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:59 pm

KingLouie wrote:"not on display" = not visible, or just not visible as to make it one's primary focus? Sorry, I thought you meant "on display" as in, displayed on a plinth or something. So yes, it's visible. And I guess in this scenario, it is pretty much the main focus.
Is the container part of a statue assembly? Part of a water-gathering/well assembly?No to both
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby Balin » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:03 pm

Does the point of the koan involve the rigidity/fluidity of definitions of words?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:02 am

Balin wrote:Does the point of the koan involve the rigidity/fluidity of definitions of words?

I’m not sure what you mean, can you be more specific?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby KingLouie » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:08 pm

I think what Balin is referring to is how vocabulary changes meaning over time. A given word may mean something entirely different than it did years ago (the word 'gay' comes to mind). Also, we perhaps over-generalize certain definitions, such as areas in the U.S.A. referring to any carbonated cola as a "Coke", that sort of thing.
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:30 pm

KingLouie wrote:I think what Balin is referring to is how vocabulary changes meaning over time. A given word may mean something entirely different than it did years ago (the word 'gay' comes to mind). Also, we perhaps over-generalize certain definitions, such as areas in the U.S.A. referring to any carbonated cola as a "Coke", that sort of thing. Not this.
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby KingLouie » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:02 am

Relevant that the idea/purpose of a water bottle is to "contain" or isolate that water from everything else (to avoid "contamination" etc.), and this container deliberately did not have a lid, perhaps to reinforce an opposing concept?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:03 pm

KingLouie wrote:Relevant that the idea/purpose of a water bottle is to "contain" yes or isolate that water from everything else (to avoid "contamination" etc.), no and this container deliberately did not have a lid, for the purpose of the koan, yes perhaps to reinforce an opposing concept?Not this
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby KingLouie » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:35 pm

Is the koan related to discrimination?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:50 pm

KingLouie wrote:Is the koan related to discrimination? No
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby KingLouie » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:02 am

Freedom relevant?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:50 pm

KingLouie wrote:Freedom relevant? No
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby biograd » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:36 pm

Was it relevant that some water was always evaporating from the water bottle, and water vapor from the air was condensing inside, such that some of the water molecules that were inside the bottle at one time would be different from the ones inside the bottle at some other time?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:27 pm

biograd wrote:Was it relevant that some water was always evaporating from the water bottle, and water vapor from the air was condensing inside, such that some of the water molecules that were inside the bottle at one time would be different from the ones inside the bottle at some other time? No
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby Balin » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:14 pm

Relevant that since the bottle did not have a lid it was technically not "containing" the water at all?
Does Yoshi do something with the bottle? Turn it over? Empty it? Fill it?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] You cannot call it a water bottle.

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:49 am

Balin wrote:Relevant that since the bottle did not have a lid it was technically not "containing" the water at all? No, but otrt
Does Yoshi do something with the bottle? YesTurn it over? Yes Empty it? and YESFill it?


*******************[$POILER]*******************

In Buddhism, nothing is inherently anything. Everything depends on something else for its existence. This is called 'co-dependent origination'. So the bottle is not inherently a water bottle, which is why the Master says, 'You cannot call it a water bottle'.

To show that he understands what the Master is saying, Yoshi kicks over the bottle, and the water runs out. Now it is not a 'water bottle' but simply a bottle. He could have gone further and smashed it, in which case it would not even have been a bottle.

As one of my earliest puzzles, I did not realise when I was setting it how difficult this would be to solve, or even define! I'm not even sure I answered all of the questions properly.

Well done to Balin for the solve, and to everyone else who took part.
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