[IrishElk] Birth of a Nation

[irishelk]

You created me. I am composed of the things you forgot you were afraid of. One of those things is you.

1) What am I and
2) Which part of me is you?

(Okay, it's a bit riddle-y, but it should require some lateral leaps.)

[GalFisk]

Forgot you were afraid of: something "you" are no longer afraid of? Something "you" are afraid of, but don't remember? Is "you": a person? A group? A people? All people? Is "me" a person? An object? A nation? A concept?

[invisiblemimsy]

Is "me" and "I" the same thing? Is "you" something else? Is this to do with a memory? Something that happened in the past? Is this to do with something which happened in the past? Could "you" = invisiblemimsy? GalFisk, irishelk etc? Could "you" = "everyone"?

[Earnest]

Assuming you = everyone ...did we forget about thethings we were afraid of because of historical reasons? Time passing by? Did those "things" happen in hostory? Modern history? Were we afraid of them and then we forgot because there is no more reason to be afraid of them? Are we afraid of them as human being? Does this fear originated from neanderthal man? Is it something in human nature?

So the thing to discover is composed also by me Earnest right? If so is the thing different and specific for any human being? Is it different for me wrt the one of invisiblemimsy, Galfisk and so on? Composed = is it something build in century? Created by human beings because human being introduced the things we are afraid of and we forgot? E.g. wars? Weapons?...

[irishelk]

GalFisk

Forgot you were afraid of: something "you" are no longer afraid of? Yes, to an extent, but... Something "you" are afraid of, but don't remember? There may be some lingering fear. Is "you": a person? A group? A people? All people? This. Is "me" a person? An object? A nation? A concept? Closest to this.


invisiblemimsy

Is "me" and "I" the same thing? Yes. Is "you" something else? Different than "I", yes. Is this to do with a memory? Yesish. Something that happened in the past? Yes. Is this to do with something which happened in the past? Yes. Could "you" = invisiblemimsy? GalFisk, irishelk etc? Not specifically, but... Could "you" = "everyone"? Yes.


Earnest

Assuming you = everyone ...did we forget about thethings we were afraid of because of historical reasons? Kind of. Time passing by? Yope--not only because time passed. Did those "things" happen in hostory? DOYD, but I'll say no. Modern history? Definitely no. Were we afraid of them and then we forgot because there is no more reason to be afraid of them? Yes, more or less. Are we afraid of them as human being? Yes. Does this fear originated from neanderthal man? Yes**. Is it something in human nature? Yes.

So the thing to discover is composed also by me Earnest right? Not specifically; it predates you. If so is the thing different and specific for any human being? You could re-create it if you wanted, but not everyone does. Is it different for me wrt the one of invisiblemimsy, Galfisk and so on? Could be, not necessarily. Composed = is it something build in century? In this century? No. Created by human beings because human being introduced the things we are afraid of and we forgot? Very good question, and the answer is--partially. E.g. wars? Weapons?... This is very relevant.


**Although not literally from Neanderthals because we aren't directly descended from them. But early hominids, certainly. /anthropology rant.

[GalFisk]

Me: war? Tribalism? Paranoia? Phobias? Irrational fears? Fear-mongering? War-mongering? Politics? Economy? Is evolutionary psychology relevant? Fight-or-flight response?

[Earnest]

Did human introduced it for defensive reasons originally? To defend himself from somethibg else?
Is the part of thing in us something physical? (E.g. water and the thing is made of water...ok stupid example but to be clear...) something physically inside us? something mentally inside us? Is the thing composed by everything we were afraid of as human beings? Natural phenomena?

Are weapons and wars a consequence of the "thing"? A direct consequence? Or are them part of it? Did we as human being fight wars because of that thing? Or thanks to that thing?

So the thing is composed by many things we were afraid of and one of those things is us right? Is the thing a specific weapon called as a part of our body? Is the thing a weapon at all? Is it a tool to defend ourself? Is it used now? As originally was used?

[invisiblemimsy]

Is this to do with a legend, myth, fairytale? Ghosts, gods, monsters, archetypes?

[irishelk]

GalFisk

Me: "Me" is none of these things, but relevant to the puzzle are... war? This. Tribalism? Paranoia? Phobias? Thisish... Irrational fears? Fear-mongering? War-mongering? Politics? Economy? Is evolutionary psychology relevant? And this. No to rest. Fight-or-flight response?


Earnest

Did human introduced it for defensive reasons originally? "it" meaning "me"? No. To defend himself from somethibg else? No.
Is the part of thing in us something physical? (E.g. water and the thing is made of water...ok stupid example but to be clear...) something physically inside us? something mentally inside us? No to these. Is the thing composed by everything we were afraid of as human beings? Not everything, but many things certainly. Natural phenomena? Yesish.

Are weapons and wars a consequence of the "thing"? No. A direct consequence? Or are them part of it? Yesish. Did we as human being fight wars because of that thing? Or thanks to that thing? No to rest.

So the thing is composed by many things we were afraid of and one of those things is us right? Correct. Is the thing a specific weapon called as a part of our body? No. Is the thing a weapon at all? Is it a tool to defend ourself? Is it used now? No to these. As originally was used? No, with a tiny "ish" that will probably not help.


invisiblemimsy

Is this to do with a legend, myth, fairytale? Yes--I'd say myth. Ghosts, gods, monsters, This. archetypes?

[invisiblemimsy]

Is it tangible, intangible, imaginary? Myself? The bogey man? Death? Ghosts?

[trebor]

Are you a particular myth? A creation story? An ideology? A way of living? Religion, or a specific religion?

Is fear of the unknown relevant? Did we create you in early hominid days? Or was that just when the fear developed that led to your later creation?

Would you say you are a significant part of the daily lives of most people? Do we think of you as a good thing? A bad thing? Are we aware of you at all?

[irishelk]

invisiblemimsy

Is it tangible, intangible, imaginary? Imaginary, but would be tangible if it were real. Myself? The bogey man? Death? Ghosts? No to rest.


trebor

Are you a particular myth? Not a story, but a specific thing from myths. A creation story? An ideology? A way of living? Religion, or a specific religion? No to rest.

Is fear of the unknown relevant? No. Did we create you in early hominid days? Good question. I don't think we actually know. It was probably later. Or was that just when the fear developed that led to your later creation? Yes, definitely.

Would you say you are a significant part of the daily lives of most people? No, but... Do we think of you as a good thing? A bad thing? Most people I know would say they're cool. Some might dislike them. Are we aware of you at all? Yes, most everybody knows what they are.

[invisiblemimsy]

Dragons?

[irishelk]

invisiblemimsy

Dragons? Yes!

Now, which part of dragons "is people"?

[invisiblemimsy]

Is it an emotion, an archetype, a trait, a skill, a nightmare, something else?

[trebor]

Is there a wordplay thing going on here?

[invisiblemimsy]

Is it the reptilian brain?

[irishelk]

invisiblemimsy

Is it an emotion, an archetype, a trait, a skill, a nightmare, No to these. something else? I would say less abstract.


trebor

Is there a wordplay thing going on here? Not really.


invisiblemimsy

Is it the reptilian brain? No, but good guess.

[invisiblemimsy]

Our ability to make fire? A myth in which dragons created fire? Taught us to make fire? A myth in which we created fire? Fire itself? We were dragons? Body part of dragons? We were dragons' eggs? Magic? Ability? Ability to fly? Earth Air Fire Water Spirit relevant? My breath after a late night curry?

[trebor]

Were dragons metaphorical stand-ins for people? Like for enemies in battle? Have they gotten anthropomorphized?

[irishelk]

invisiblemimsy

Our ability to make fire? This is relevant.
A myth in which dragons created fire? Yesish... Taught us to make fire? A myth in which we created fire? Fire itself? The myth is none of these things exactly.
We were dragons? In a sense... Body part of dragons? We were dragons' eggs? Magic? Ability? An ability of theirs, yes. Ability to fly? Earth Air Fire Water Spirit relevant? Just fire, alas no Captain today. My breath after a late night curry? Haha good guess but no.


trebor

Were dragons metaphorical stand-ins for people? In this specific capacity, yes. Like for enemies in battle? YES. Have they gotten anthropomorphized? Yesish, in that they are taking on a human characteristic...

[trebor]

Fire-breathing? (I’d assumed that had already been asked.) Is fire-breathing a stand-in for weaponry?

[irishelk]

trebor

Fire-breathing? Yes. (I’d assumed that had already been asked.) It had not! Is fire-breathing a stand-in for weaponry? Yesish! You're pretty much there, unless you want to guess specifics...

[trebor]

Long-distance weaponry? Catapults? Flaming projectiles? Gunpowder? Did dragons not breathe fire before this weaponry was invented?

[irishelk]

trebor

Long-distance weaponry? Catapults? Flaming projectiles? This or something like it. Gunpowder? Did dragons not breathe fire before this weaponry was invented? That's the theory, at least...

*****************SPOILER***********

Nicely done, everyone, and trebor for finishing it off! "I" am a dragon.

I was listening to a very convincing theory that the reason that so many separate cultures invented an animal like a dragon is because it is a combination of all the animals that were dangerous to early man: crocodilians, snakes, big cats, big birds, etc. The fire-breathing thing seems to have come later and be more common in Europe, which makes historians believe that it is based on early, frightening encounters with fire-based weapons, possibly the legendary Greek fire. It is known that weapons that poured fire or molten metal were often shaped like a dragon's mouth, but no one is sure if this is where the fire-breathing dragon comes from, or if the weapons are based on an already-existing legend.

In any case, if you look at a dragon as kind of a catalogue of our unconscious fears, the fire is our fear of war with other humans.