[Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Current and recently solved lateral thinking puzzles. Please post new lateral thinking puzzles here.

Moderators: peter365, Balin, kalira, JenBurdoo, Tiger

[Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Enjay » Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:57 pm

A man goes up to a woman he has never met before, hands her a bunch of flowers, and then promptly murders her.

Why?

This is taken from the plot of a TV episode so please PM if you think you recognise it - I thought I might have run this puzzle before but can't see that I have!
Enjay
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Balin » Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:32 pm

Does he commit the murder in a public place? A private place?
Are the flowers part of the murder? Are they the weapon? Are they used to conceal the weapon?
Balin
 
Posts: 6713
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 11:12 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Enjay » Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:41 pm

Does he commit the murder in a public place? This A private place?
Are the flowers part of the murder? They do not contribute to the victim's death Are they the weapon? Are they used to conceal the weapon? No to both
Enjay
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby wolfier » Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:44 pm

starting with the obvious: is the murderer killing on behalf of someone else?
wolfier
 
Posts: 969
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:42 am

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Enjay » Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:45 pm

starting with the obvious: is the murderer killing on behalf of someone else? No
Enjay
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby wolfier » Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:52 am

did the killer decide to kill her before handing her the flower? before entering the park? did the reaction of the woman to the flower given to her prompt the murder? could the puzzle work if it were a bunch of broccoli instead of flower? a jacket? a rock?
wolfier
 
Posts: 969
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:42 am

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Earnest » Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:21 pm

Did he hand her the flowers as diversion? To hide something? To hide a weapon? Poison relevant? Relevant how he murdered her? With a weapon?

Was the woman marrying? Was there an event? Did he meet her in a public place where she used to go? Did she kmow him? Have they never interact one with the other? Relevant?
Earnest
 
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Enjay » Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:58 pm

did the killer decide to kill her before handing her the flower? Yes before entering the park? They are not in a park did the reaction of the woman to the flower given to her prompt the murder? No could the puzzle work if it were a bunch of broccoli instead of flower? a jacket? a rock? In these particular circumstances only flowers would do but there could be a version in which any of these would do.

Did he hand her the flowers as diversion? No To hide something? No To hide a weapon? No Poison relevant? No Relevant how he murdered her? Yes With a weapon? No

Was the woman marrying? No Was there an event? No Did he meet her in a public place where she used to go? YesDid she kmow him? No Have they never interact one with the other? They have never interacted before Relevant? Yes
Enjay
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby wolfier » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:17 pm

is any animal or insect relevant?
wolfier
 
Posts: 969
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:42 am

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Enjay » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:01 pm

is any animal or insect relevant? No
Enjay
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Earnest » Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:20 am

Did she know about him even without knowing her? Was the killer paid to kill people? If so was him paid by soneone relevant? By the woman herself? Could he have murdered also another woman/man or it must be that specific woman? Did he spy them for a lot of time before killing her? Did he kill her as a part if a plan (e.g. steal sonething? Distract police?...)? Were the flowers necessary? If so to cover his face? Were the flower poisonous? Did he strangle her? Poison her? Did other people notice he was killing her? Was she sit on a bench?
Earnest
 
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby android18 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:02 am

Murders her with a gun? A blunt object? A sharp object? A bow and arrow? Did the man directly hand the flowers to her? Did she actually see the man? Were the flowers for her? Did she expect to be murdered? Whilst they'd never met, did she know who he was? Relevant which time period this is set? If so, modern times? pre-1950? 19th century? 18th? 17th? Earlier?
android18
 
Posts: 342
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:15 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Enjay » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:54 pm

Did she know about him even without knowing her? The first she knew of him was when he gave her the flowers Was the killer paid to kill people? No If so was him paid by soneone relevant? By the woman herself?
Could he have murdered also another woman Yes/man No or it must be that specific woman? No Did he spy them for a lot of time before killing her? No Did he kill her as a part if a plan Yes (e.g. steal sonething? Distract police?...)? Neither of these Were the flowers necessary? Yes If so to cover his face? No Were the flower poisonous? No Did he strangle her? No Poison her? No Did other people notice he was killing her? Yes Was she sit on a bench? No


Murders her with a gun? No A blunt object? No or a tiny noish A sharp object? No A bow and arrow? No Did the man directly hand the flowers to her? Yes Did she actually see the man? Yes Were the flowers for her? Yes Did she expect to be murdered? No Whilst they'd never met, did she know who he was? No Relevant which time period this is set? Yes although a similar version could occur in other periods If so, modern times? This pre-1950? 19th century? 18th? 17th? Earlier?
Enjay
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Earnest » Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:11 pm

So killed without weapons in public with others seeing it right? Were the others mostly astonished? Surprised? Willing yo help the woman? Approving the murder?

Relevant where the public place was? Was it a square? A park? A building? An hospital? (E.g. he was a doctor and was forced to take her off life support?) A street? A cinema? A pub? A restaurant? A bridge? An airport? A train station?

Is weight balance relevant? (By giving her flowers a relevant weight unbalance happened?) Did she die by falling from somewhere? Did he push her?
Was there affection in the gesture of the man? Was she stoned? Was the woman muslim? Pregnant? Belonging to a minority? Were the flowers symbolic?
Did he kill her to have the life saved? (E.g. he was a robber escaping from the police...in the escape he was grabbed into some vines which he was able to throw away with his hand in the moment in which he meet the woman which was unvoluntarily obstacoling his escape. So he took her the flowers and pushed her while giving her the flowers that he threw away before...ok somewhat fantasious WAG)

Was the woman part of a group? Are protests relevant? Relevant the job of the man? When he gave her the flowers (btw relevant which flowers were? Allergies relevant? Did he attract bees by giving her flowers? If so did bees kill the woman?) she simply take them? Let them down? If she took them, did the man touch her in order to kill her?
Earnest
 
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Enjay » Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:38 pm

So killed without weapons in public with others seeing it right? Correct Were the others mostly astonished? Surprised? Willing yo help the woman? Probably all these Approving the murder? No

Relevant where the public place was? Yes Was it a square? A park? A building? An hospital? (E.g. he was a doctor and was forced to take her off life support?) A street? A cinema? A pub? A restaurant? A bridge? An airport? A train station? This

Is weight balance relevant? See later answers (By giving her flowers a relevant weight unbalance happened?) But not this Did she die by falling from somewhere? Yes Did he push her? Yes
Was there affection in the gesture of the man? No Was she stoned? No
Was the woman muslim? Pregnant? Belonging to a minority? All irrelevant
Were the flowers symbolic? No
Did he kill her to have the life saved? Yope (E.g. he was a robber escaping from the police...in the escape he was grabbed into some vines which he was able to throw away with his hand in the moment in which he meet the woman which was unvoluntarily obstacoling his escape. So he took her the flowers and pushed her while giving her the flowers that he threw away before...ok somewhat fantasious WAG) Good story but no!

Was the woman part of a group? No Are protests relevant? No Relevant the job of the man? No When he gave her the flowers Yes (btw relevant which flowers were? No Allergies relevant? No Did he attract bees by giving her flowers? No If so did bees kill the woman?) she simply take them? Yes Let them down? No If she took them, did the man touch her in order to kill her? Yes
Enjay
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Earnest » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:46 pm

So can we say that he "throw" her the flowers? Were the flowers an impediment for the man? Did he push her under a train? Outside of a train? Did he want to block the train? To create caos? Derail a train? Let the police focus the attention on the death woman? Was him relevantly aware of the presence of cameras in the train station?
Sorry but I did not understand if he was escaping...? Was him promptly arrested after having pushed the woman? Did he want to?
Did he want to be noticed while killing the woman?

Did he bought the flowers before committing the murder? Did he catch them in a field? Relevant?

His plan were to: steal a train? Steal something? Commit a crime? Be arrested? Fake a suicide of the woman?
Earnest
 
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby android18 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:51 pm

Did he intend to be caught? Was his act of giving her the flowers somehow meant to obscure him pushing her? Would he not have been able to kill her without giving her the flowers? Was anyone else involved in either the murder or the wider plan?
android18
 
Posts: 342
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:15 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby wolfier » Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:21 pm

were there others also holding flowers at the train station? did he push her down the tracks when a train is approaching?
wolfier
 
Posts: 969
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:42 am

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Enjay » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:36 am

So can we say that he "throw" her the flowers? No, he gave them to her Were the flowers an impediment for the man? No Did he push her under a train? Yes Outside of a train? Did he want to block the train? No To create caos? No Derail a train? No Let the police focus the attention on the death woman? He wanted it to get attention, yes Was him relevantly aware of the presence of cameras in the train station? Irrel
Sorry but I did not understand if he was escaping...? Yes, he escaped Was him promptly arrested after having pushed the woman? No Did he want to? No
Did he want to be noticed while killing the woman? No

Did he bought the flowers before committing the murder? Probably Did he catch them in a field? Relevant? No

His plan were to: steal a train? No Steal something? No Commit a crime? Yes Be arrested? No Fake a suicide of the woman? No


Did he intend to be caught? No Was his act of giving her the flowers somehow meant to obscure him pushing her? No Would he not have been able to kill her without giving her the flowers? He could have done but it would not have served his purpose Was anyone else involved in either the murder No or the wider plan? Yes


were there others also holding flowers at the train station? No did he push her down the tracks when a train is approaching? Yes
Enjay
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Earnest » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:21 am

Did he want that it seems that the woman had the flower already on her hands when she died? That the flowers were the cause of her death (in the sense that it seemed an accidental death due to the distraction of the woman?)? Were the flowers necessary to approach to the woman? In order her to be unbalanced? (holding the flower she was unable to use her hands to grab for instance?) Could he have given her also other objects than flowers? Relevant which type of flowers were? Did he want to get rid of the flowers? Did someone relevantly give him the flowers?

Criminal Plan = just to escape after having committed a crime? To throw off the investigation? To sabotage something? Is the crime related to the train station? To a train in particular? Did he want the passengers of the train to stay inside the train? Did he want to protest against something? Drugs/alcohol relevant? Is the crime considered such in every state? Is the relevant crime committed before the murder of the woman? After? In the meanwhile? Stealing relevant? Is it a crime against someone in particular? An institution?

Did he push the woman immediately after having given her the flowers? Minutes after? Hours after? Did he expect her to smell the flowers? Relevant?

Was there something hidden inside the flowers?
Earnest
 
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Enjay » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:11 pm

Did he want that it seems that the woman had the flower already on her hands when she died? Yes That the flowers were the cause of her death (in the sense that it seemed an accidental death due to the distraction of the woman?)? No Were the flowers necessary to approach to the woman? No In order her to be unbalanced? No (holding the flower she was unable to use her hands to grab for instance?) Could he have given her also other objects than flowers? Not in the circumstances of this puzzle Relevant which type of flowers were? No Did he want to get rid of the flowers? No Did someone relevantly give him the flowers? No

For all the below questions I'm assuming you are referring to his yet-to-be-discovered criminal plan and not the crime of murdering the woman
Criminal Plan = just to escape after having committed a crime? No To throw off the investigation? Yes To sabotage something? No Is the crime related to the train station? No To a train in particular? No Did he want the passengers of the train to stay inside the train? No Did he want to protest against something? No Drugs/alcohol relevant? No Is the crime considered such in every state? Yes Is the relevant crime committed before the murder of the woman? After? This In the meanwhile? Stealing relevant? No Is it a crime against someone in particular? Yes An institution? No

Did he push the woman immediately after having given her the flowers? Yes Minutes after? Hours after? Did he expect her to smell the flowers? No Relevant? No

Was there something hidden inside the flowers? No
Enjay
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby trebor » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:44 pm

Was the murder part of an initiation? Is he part of a gang, the mafia, etc.? Is he affiliated with a relevant religious/political group?

Was the other crime a theft? Murder? Was the main point to delay the train? To delay someone on the train? To send police resources to the train station?

Did he offer the flowers to anyone else? Was she the first person he went up to? Relevant? Would be have pushed her had she not accepted the flowers? When he walked into the train station did he immediately single her out as the one to kill? Was he aware of who she was beforehand? Is there more to discover about her other than that she took the flowers and was pushed onto the tracks?

Is the response of nearby people relevant? Was he counting on them rushing to help her?
trebor
 
Posts: 445
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:23 am
Location: Canada

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby wolfier » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:25 am

Would the relevant crime committed against someone else, happen immediately after the murder of the woman? If not, is the murderer certain that he would not be comprehended for murder before he can commit the "main" crime? Or would an accomplice actually commit it?
wolfier
 
Posts: 969
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:42 am

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Enjay » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:19 pm

Was the murder part of an initiation? Is he part of a gang, the mafia, etc.? Is he affiliated with a relevant religious/political group? No to all

Was the other crime a theft? Murder? This
Was the main point to delay the train? To delay someone on the train? To send police resources to the train station? No to all

Did he offer the flowers to anyone else? No Was she the first person he went up to? Yes Relevant? Somewhat - see next answer Would be have pushed her had she not accepted the flowers? No When he walked into the train station did he immediately single her out as the one to kill? Irrel Was he aware of who she was beforehand? No Is there more to discover about her other than that she took the flowers and was pushed onto the tracks? No

Is the response of nearby people relevant? No Was he counting on them rushing to help her? No
trebor


Would the relevant crime committed against someone else, happen immediately after the murder of the woman? DOYD of immediately, within a day or two yes. If not, is the murderer certain that he would not be comprehended for murder before he can commit the "main" crime? Or would an accomplice actually commit it? No, the man commit both crimes himself
Enjay
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby trebor » Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:41 am

An early post said the flowers do not contribute to the victim’s death, but he would not have murdered her had she not accepted the flowers. I think I know you you meant this, but just to be sure, if he had handed her, say, a book or a bag of groceries and she had accepted, would he have still killed her? Does the fact that she accepted the flowers convey some relevant information to him?

Has he murdered before? Committed any other relevant crimes? Does he have only the one further murder planned? More? Are the flowers part of a message he’s trying to send? Is he one of those diabolical Hollywood murderers that leaves clues for police, believing himself smarter than them? Are the flowers meant to frame someone else for her murder? If so, his next victim?

Is any of the following relevant about his next victim: age? gender? profession? relation to him? relation to the first victim? history with the police? ethnicity? Does he even know who his next victim will be?
trebor
 
Posts: 445
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:23 am
Location: Canada

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby wolfier » Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:49 am

So, did the acceptance of the flower identify the woman to the murderer?
Did the murderer want to frame someone for this (pushing woman into oncoming train) murder?
Is the murderer's profession relevant? i.e. can he reasonably make a case in the eye of the public that this killing is necessary or even a part of his job, in order to get away with it? Or is he pretending to be someone of another profession?
wolfier
 
Posts: 969
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:42 am

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby GalFisk » Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:12 pm

Did he plan to commit any other crimes than the murder in the puzzle description and the subsequent one? Would he have murdered the woman if noone had seen him do it? Is the second murder victim H? A? F? Is the second victim murdered at home? Work? The train station? Relevant how the second victim is murdered? Why? If so: profit? Revenge? Jealousy? To benefit someone else? To the detriment of someone else? Does the murderer plan to get away with both murders? Relevant if he does get away with them? Does he want to make it seem that the two murders are done by different people? Is his appearance when committing the first murder relevant?
GalFisk
 
Posts: 7955
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 8:03 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Enjay » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:31 pm

An early post said the flowers do not contribute to the victim’s death, but he would not have murdered her had she not accepted the flowers. Sorry if this was misleading - I meant the flowers were not used to kill her (eg as a weapon)
I think I know you you meant this, but just to be sure, if he had handed her, say, a book or a bag of groceries and she had accepted, would he have still killed her? No although there could be a version of this puzzle where these would work
Does the fact that she accepted the flowers convey some relevant information to him? No

Has he murdered before? No Committed any other relevant crimes? No Does he have only the one further murder planned? Yes More? Are the flowers part of a message he’s trying to send? Noish Is he one of those diabolical Hollywood murderers that leaves clues for police, believing himself smarter than them? No Are the flowers meant to frame someone else for her murder? No If so, his next victim?

Is any of the following relevant about his next victim: age? gender? profession? relation to him? This, no to rest relation to the first victim? history with the police? ethnicity? Does he even know who his next victim will be? Yes

So, did the acceptance of the flower identify the woman to the murderer? No
Did the murderer want to frame someone for this (pushing woman into oncoming train) murder? No
Is the murderer's profession relevant? No i.e. can he reasonably make a case in the eye of the public that this killing is necessary or even a part of his job, in order to get away with it? No Or is he pretending to be someone of another profession? No

Did he plan to commit any other crimes than the murder in the puzzle description and the subsequent one? No Would he have murdered the woman if noone had seen him do it? Yes Is the second murder victim H? A? F? Yes to all Is the second victim murdered at home? Probably this Work? The train station? Relevant how the second victim is murdered? No Why? Not really If so: profit? Revenge? Jealousy? Most likely this To benefit someone else? To the detriment of someone else? Does the murderer plan to get away with both murders? Yes Relevant if he does get away with them? No - in the show, he doesn't Does he want to make it seem that the two murders are done by different people? Yope Is his appearance when committing the first murder relevant? Yope
Enjay
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby wolfier » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:43 pm

Are the 2 murder victims related? e.g. perhaps they're twins? The first murder victim is someone the killer has never met, but are they related? In a similar fashion that the 2nd victim is related to the killer?
wolfier
 
Posts: 969
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:42 am

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Enjay » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:31 pm

Are the 2 murder victims related? No e.g. perhaps they're twins? The first murder victim is someone the killer has never met, but are they related? No In a similar fashion that the 2nd victim is related to the killer? No
Enjay
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby trebor » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:58 pm

Is the second victim his wife? Girfriend? Lover? Sister? Mother? Aunt? Daughter? Grandmother?

Is he disguised when committing the first murder? Does he have a relevant twin? Is he wearing something relevant when committing the first murder? Is he trying to give the appearance of him working for a florist/bike delivery person/some other profession where going up to a stranger and handing her flowers would be normal?

Do the two murder victims know each other? Has he seen a picture or likeness of the first victim before?

As far as committing the first murder to throw police off the track on the second one, is it an attempt to make the second murder appear a suicide? Are fingerprints relevant? Does committing the first murder somehow give him an alibi for the second murder?

Is the man's profession relevant? Is there anything relevant he is going to do between the two murders? If he had murdered the first woman by other means would his goal still have been accomplished? Is it necessary that her death is particularly gruesome? Is it necessary that she be holding flowers when she dies? Do the flowers interact somehow with the train or tracks? Is there any relevant note with the flowers? Had anything been put on the flowers prior to him giving them to the woman?
trebor
 
Posts: 445
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:23 am
Location: Canada

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Enjay » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:51 pm

Is the second victim his wife? This Girfriend? Lover? Sister? Mother? Aunt? Daughter? Grandmother?

Is he disguised when committing the first murder? Not disguised as anything in particular but he is hiding his identity Does he have a relevant twin? No Is he wearing something relevant when committing the first murder? No Is he trying to give the appearance of him working for a florist/bike delivery person/some other profession where going up to a stranger and handing her flowers would be normal? No

Do the two murder victims know each other? No Has he seen a picture or likeness of the first victim before? No

As far as committing the first murder to throw police off the track on the second one, is it an attempt to make the second murder appear a suicide? No but OTRT Are fingerprints relevant? No Does committing the first murder somehow give him an alibi for the second murder? No

Is the man's profession relevant? No Is there anything relevant he is going to do between the two murders? No If he had murdered the first woman by other means would his goal still have been accomplished? No Is it necessary that her death is particularly gruesome? It is necessary that it happens the way it does Is it necessary that she be holding flowers when she dies? Yes Do the flowers interact somehow with the train or tracks? No Is there any relevant note with the flowers? No Had anything been put on the flowers prior to him giving them to the woman? No
Enjay
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby trebor » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:39 am

Does he want to make the second murder look like an accident? Is it relevant whether there will be any work done to get the subway up and running again? Whether the subway system will be shut down? Now that I think about it, I realize that I've been assuming it was a modern, subway sort of a train and train station. Is this assumption correct? Or was it an actual steam locomotive sort of train? Time period relevant? Location?

Is he hiding his identity with a mask? With anything else physical? Does he use the flowers to hide his face? Is he hiding his identity because that's how he will get away with the murder(s)? Prior to committing the murder, would anyone at the train station know his identity? Does he conceal his identity by means of verbally lying about who he is? Are security cameras relevant?

Does he transfer something onto the woman when he pushes her? Are there any relevant people that we haven't discovered? Does he expect someone to do something with her body? Is coverage of the first murder relevant? Does he need her body to be mangled? Uh, does he need her internal organs to become external? Is it relevant whether she is still holding onto the flowers after her death? Does he need it to look like they were lovers?
trebor
 
Posts: 445
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:23 am
Location: Canada

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby wolfier » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:13 am

Can the flowers be substituted with any other bunch of flowers? Plastic flowers?
Is his wife in any way related to the train station? The train? The flowers?
Is the manner in which he's going to murder his wife relevant?
wolfier
 
Posts: 969
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:42 am

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Enjay » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:54 am

Does he want to make the second murder look like an accident? No but OTRT Is it relevant whether there will be any work done to get the subway up and running again? No Whether the subway system will be shut down? No Now that I think about it, I realize that I've been assuming it was a modern, subway sort of a train and train station. Is this assumption correct? Yes Or was it an actual steam locomotive sort of train? No Time period relevant? To an extent - assume modern times Location? No

Is he hiding his identity with a mask? Irrel With anything else physical? Possibly Does he use the flowers to hide his face? No Is he hiding his identity because that's how he will get away with the murder(s)? Yes Prior to committing the murder, would anyone at the train station know his identity? No Does he conceal his identity by means of verbally lying about who he is? No Are security cameras relevant? No

Does he transfer something onto the woman when he pushes her? Only the flowers Are there any relevant people that we haven't discovered? Yes Does he expect someone to do something with her body? No Is coverage of the first murder relevant? Yes Does he need her body to be mangled? No Uh, does he need her internal organs to become external? No Is it relevant whether she is still holding onto the flowers after her death? Yes, and she is Does he need it to look like they were lovers? No


Can the flowers be substituted with any other bunch of flowers? Plastic flowers? Yes, any flowers would work
Is his wife in any way related to the train station? No The train? No The flowers? Noish
Is the manner in which he's going to murder his wife relevant? No
Enjay
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Balin » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:35 pm

Is the time between the murders relevant? If so, minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks? Months? Years?
Were the two murders committed in the same way? At the same location?
Did the first murder receive significant news coverage? Is it receiving significant coverage at the time of the second murder?
At the time of the second murder, has anyone relevantly been questioned for the first murder? Arrested for the first murder?
Balin
 
Posts: 6713
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 11:12 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby jumpingjacks » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:49 pm

At the time of the first murder, was there a serial killer at large who would have his victims holding flowers as a sort of signature of his 'work'? Did the man want it to look like this murder was just another link in the chain of those murders?
He wants the police to find the body of the first woman holding flowers, correct? What is he hoping they will think: that she bought the flowers herself? That someone gave them to her? Does he want them to know that it was the murderer who gave them to her?
Does he want the police to believe, after the murder of his wife, that her murderer was the unknown man who'd pushed the flower-holding woman in front of a train? So he was sort of framing himself / his other persona?
User avatar
jumpingjacks
 
Posts: 788
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:54 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby GalFisk » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:51 am

Does he want the second murder to seem like it was committed by the same person as the first murder? Does he want to hide the motive for the second murder? Does he have an alibi for the first murder?
GalFisk
 
Posts: 7955
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 8:03 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Enjay » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:11 pm

Is the time between the murders relevant? If so, minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks? Months? Years? Somewhere between hours and a couple of days, much longer wouldn't work
Were the two murders committed in the same way? No At the same location? No
Did the first murder receive significant news coverage? Yes Is it receiving significant coverage at the time of the second murder? Yes
At the time of the second murder, has anyone relevantly been questioned for the first murder? Arrested for the first murder? Both irrel


At the time of the first murder, was there a serial killer at large who would have his victims holding flowers as a sort of signature of his 'work'? No Did the man want it to look like this murder was just another link in the chain of those murders? No
He wants the police to find the body of the first woman holding flowers, correct? Yes What is he hoping they will think: that she bought the flowers herself? That someone gave them to her? Does he want them to know that it was the murderer who gave them to her? Could be any of these
Does he want the police to believe, after the murder of his wife, that her murderer was the unknown man who'd pushed the flower-holding woman in front of a train? No So he was sort of framing himself / his other persona? No


Does he want the second murder to seem like it was committed by the same person as the first murder? No Does he want to hide the motive for the second murder? No Does he have an alibi for the first murder? No
Enjay
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby wolfier » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:16 pm

is there enough manpower in the police force to work on both murder cases at the same time?
wolfier
 
Posts: 969
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:42 am

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby jumpingjacks » Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:55 am

Is there a particular detective / police officer we need to know more about? Does this detective have a connection to flowers? Perhaps someone close to him was murdered previously? died? fell in front of a train? with flowers in her hand? And the murderer believed that having his first victim die with flowers in her hand too would so disturb the detective, that he would devote all his resources to working on the first case, and neglect the second?
User avatar
jumpingjacks
 
Posts: 788
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:54 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby GalFisk » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:55 am

Does he want the second murder to receive less coverage? Less scrutiny? Does he want someone to be busy with the first murder, leaving someone less capable to deal with the second one?
GalFisk
 
Posts: 7955
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 8:03 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby wwhere » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:22 am

Is his wife's job relevant?
Did he chose to use the flowers (instead of something else)? Or was he compelled to use flowers because of something that had happened before? I'm thinking something like someone having a premonition of a dead woman in front a train with flowers in her hand, and he trying to make it happen.
Is it relevant where was he planning to kill his wife?
Is it relevant why was he planning to kill his wife?
Is anything about the first victim relevant, beyond she being a woman in a train station at the wrong time?
Is it relevant where (country/city) does all this happen? Is it relevant when (season, month...) does all this happen?
wwhere
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:31 pm
Location: York, United Kingdom

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Enjay » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:28 pm

is there enough manpower in the police force to work on both murder cases at the same time? Yes


Is there a particular detective / police officer we need to know more about? No Does this detective have a connection to flowers? Perhaps someone close to him was murdered previously? died? fell in front of a train? with flowers in her hand? And the murderer believed that having his first victim die with flowers in her hand too would so disturb the detective, that he would devote all his resources to working on the first case, and neglect the second? No to all

Does he want the second murder to receive less coverage? Yes Less scrutiny? And yes Does he want someone to be busy with the first murder, leaving someone less capable to deal with the second one? No


Is his wife's job relevant? No
Did he chose to use the flowers (instead of something else)? No Or was he compelled to use flowers because of something that had happened before? Yes I'm thinking something like someone having a premonition of a dead woman in front a train with flowers in her hand, and he trying to make it happen. No, not a premonition, but explore this
Is it relevant where was he planning to kill his wife? No
Is it relevant why was he planning to kill his wife? No
Is anything about the first victim relevant, beyond she being a woman in a train station at the wrong time? No
Is it relevant where (country/city) does all this happen? No Is it relevant when (season, month...) does all this happen? No
Enjay
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby GalFisk » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:09 pm

Is the first murder supposed to look like a copycat murder? Is the second murder arranged in some special way? Does he want the second murder to not look like a murder? To look like a more mundane murder?
GalFisk
 
Posts: 7955
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 8:03 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby wwhere » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:32 pm

Did he kill the woman with the flowers in the hand and the train because it was the plot of a popular film/book?
Was less coverage of the second murder all he wanted to obtain?
wwhere
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:31 pm
Location: York, United Kingdom

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby trebor » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:42 am

Does the form of coverage for the first murder matter? (Online reporting, news trending on social media, TV, print, radio?)

When his wife dies will she be holding flowers as well? Is it necessary that she die within a day or two of his first victim because that’s how long it will take the first victim’s flowers to start to wilt?

Is it relevant how he was able to protect the flowers/her hands/her arms from bein obliterated by the train? Does he intend that her hands be separated from her body at the time of her death? Or after it? Does he actually push her and hold onto her hands while the train hits her?
trebor
 
Posts: 445
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:23 am
Location: Canada

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Balin » Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:55 am

Does he want people to think the second woman was murdered first?
Balin
 
Posts: 6713
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 11:12 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Enjay » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:47 pm

Is the first murder supposed to look like a copycat murder? No, but may be worth exploring...
Is the second murder arranged in some special way? No Does he want the second murder to not look like a murder? Yes! To look like a more mundane murder? No

Did he kill the woman with the flowers in the hand and the train because it was the plot of a popular film/book? No
Was less coverage of the second murder all he wanted to obtain? No


Does the form of coverage for the first murder matter? (Online reporting, news trending on social media, TV, print, radio?) No

When his wife dies will she be holding flowers as well? No Is it necessary that she die within a day or two of his first victim because that’s how long it will take the first victim’s flowers to start to wilt? No

Is it relevant how he was able to protect the flowers/her hands/her arms from bein obliterated by the train? No Does he intend that her hands be separated from her body at the time of her death? No Or after it? No Does he actually push her and hold onto her hands while the train hits her? No


Does he want people to think the second woman was murdered first? No
Enjay
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby trebor » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:39 pm

Is he aware of an impending attempt to commit murder by someone else, and will it look like that murder is a copycat of his first one?

The way he murders his wife is irrelevant, but he wants it to not look like a murder? Is committing the first murder the only thing he does to throw people off the scent of the second one? Are there certain murder methods (for his wife) that wouldn’t work? I imagine that multiple stab wounds to the back, for instance, would be pretty difficult to mistake as anything but. Is his wife differently abled? Does she have a relevant I’ll ess or disease?
trebor
 
Posts: 445
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:23 am
Location: Canada

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby jumpingjacks » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:12 pm

Does he want the second murder to look like suicide? Does his wife have a connection to flowers in some way?
User avatar
jumpingjacks
 
Posts: 788
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:54 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Enjay » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:02 pm

Is he aware of an impending attempt to commit murder by someone else, and will it look like that murder is a copycat of his first one? No

The way he murders his wife is irrelevant, but he wants it to not look like a murder? Correct Is committing the first murder the only thing he does to throw people off the scent of the second one? No Are there certain murder methods (for his wife) that wouldn’t work? No, most methods would work I imagine that multiple stab wounds to the back, for instance, would be pretty difficult to mistake as anything but. He could have killed her with multiple stab wounds Is his wife differently abled? Irrel Does she have a relevant I’ll ess or disease? No


Does he want the second murder to look like suicide? No Does his wife have a connection to flowers in some way? Yesish
Enjay
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby wolfier » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:57 am

By not wanting the wife's death to look like murder but allowing multiple stab wounds, does it mean he wanted the wife's death to be treated as manslaughter? killed out of self defence? mental illness relevant? riot? war?
wolfier
 
Posts: 969
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:42 am

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby GalFisk » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:39 am

Does he mean for his wife's body not to be found? Will he interfere with the investigations of either murder? With the dead bodies (except for making them)?
GalFisk
 
Posts: 7955
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 8:03 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby jumpingjacks » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:59 pm

Is his wife a florist? Would his wife be disturbed by hearing about the flower-holding woman hit by a train? Would she be more disturbed than the average person? Because of something about her (the wife)? Something that happened in her history?
Does the murderer want police to think that his wife ran away? And thus for it not to be treated as a murder case? Did she have a good reason to run away?
At any point prior to the first murder, has there been another woman found dead with flowers in her hand? Another woman hit by a train?
User avatar
jumpingjacks
 
Posts: 788
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:54 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby peter365 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:07 pm

Late to the party so apologies if these has been asked already.....

Is the man trying to recreate or mimic an earlier crime by pushing the lady from the platform? Has he already murdered his wife when he does this? If there was a previous train murder did it affect the man or his wife? did the man commit it?
User avatar
peter365
 
Posts: 1699
Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 9:26 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby wolfier » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:06 pm

Time period relevant? To an extent - assume modern times


Is it after the invention of trains but before the invention of DNA testing?
Does he want the first victim to be mutilated enough by the train to be unrecognisable, and then people will think it is his wife by the flower association?
wolfier
 
Posts: 969
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:42 am

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Enjay » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:41 pm

By not wanting the wife's death to look like murder but allowing multiple stab wounds, does it mean he wanted the wife's death to be treated as manslaughter? killed out of self defence? mental illness relevant? riot? war? No to all


Does he mean for his wife's body not to be found? Yes Will he interfere with the investigations of either murder? Yes (his wife's murder) With the dead bodies (except for making them)? Yes (his wife's)

Is his wife a florist? No Would his wife be disturbed by hearing about the flower-holding woman hit by a train? Yes Would she be more disturbed than the average person? Probably Because of something about her (the wife)? Something that happened in her history? This
Does the murderer want police to think that his wife ran away? Yes! And thus for it not to be treated as a murder case? Yes Did she have a good reason to run away? Yope
At any point prior to the first murder, has there been another woman found dead with flowers in her hand? Yes Another woman hit by a train? Yes


Late to the party so apologies if these has been asked already.....

Is the man trying to recreate or mimic an earlier crime by pushing the lady from the platform? Yes Has he already murdered his wife when he does this? No If there was a previous train murder did it affect the man No or his wife? Yes did the man commit it? No


Is it after the invention of trains but before the invention of DNA testing? No - DNA testing is not relevant
Does he want the first victim to be mutilated enough by the train to be unrecognisable, and then people will think it is his wife by the flower association? No
Enjay
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby jumpingjacks » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:47 pm

Was the first woman who was hit by a train with flowers in her hand related to the murderer's wife? Family? Her mother? Her sister? Daughter? Niece? Aunt? Close friend?
Had his wife ever been suspected of the murder of Flower Woman #1 (not the one her husband murders, but the one before)?

So is it more or less -- Flower woman #1 is hit by a train, with flowers in her hand. This causes the wife of the murderer (our murderer) to be very upset, because she was close to this person. At some point in the future, the protagonist of this puzzle wants to do away with his wife, but wants to make it look like she has just run away. He murders a random woman after giving her flowers and pushing her off the platform, so that it reminds his wife (and the media) of the first woman. The police would then believe that she had indeed run off, unable to bear the pain and not wanting the media scrutiny, and so they wouldn't investigate her disappearance very closely. Is this correct?
User avatar
jumpingjacks
 
Posts: 788
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:54 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Enjay » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:19 pm

Was the first woman who was hit by a train with flowers in her hand related to the murderer's wife? Family? Her mother? Her sister? Daughter? Niece? Aunt? Close friend? No to all - see later answers
Had his wife ever been suspected of the murder of Flower Woman #1 (not the one her husband murders, but the one before)? No

So is it more or less -- Flower woman #1 is hit by a train, with flowers in her hand. Yes
This causes the wife of the murderer (our murderer) to be very upset, Yes because she was close to this person. No - she was just upset because it is an upsetting thing to happen
At some point in the future, the protagonist of this puzzle wants to do away with his wife, but wants to make it look like she has just run away. Yes
He murders a random woman after giving her flowers and pushing her off the platform, Yes so that it reminds his wife (and the media) of the first woman. No, this is not the aim
The police would then believe that she had indeed run off, Yes unable to bear the pain and not wanting the media scrutiny, No and so they wouldn't investigate her disappearance very closely. Yes Is this correct? Partly!
Enjay
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby jumpingjacks » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:35 pm

Did his wife develop a phobia of trains after the very first train incident? Did she think it might happen to her? Did she witness it at the time? (the first one)
The murderer wanted the police to think his wife had run away from something? or run away to something? If the former: run away from him? from the police? from someone else? from the country? from trains in general? That she ran to somewhere she believed safer?
User avatar
jumpingjacks
 
Posts: 788
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:54 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby wolfier » Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:54 am

Does the wife sell flowers? Did she have a lot of trouble with the authorities after the first murder because she was a suspect due to the flower connection?
wolfier
 
Posts: 969
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:42 am

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby GalFisk » Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:15 am

Was the first flower death a murder? Accident? Suicide? Was the wife near when it happened? Did it happen to someone she was close to? Did she cause it? Relevant why the man wants to kill his wife?
Last edited by GalFisk on Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
GalFisk
 
Posts: 7955
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 8:03 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Enjay » Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:00 pm

Did his wife develop a phobia of trains after the very first train incident? No Did she think it might happen to her? Yesish Did she witness it at the time? No (the first one)
The murderer wanted the police to think his wife had run away from something? This or run away to something? If the former: run away from him? This from the police? from someone else? from the country? from trains in general? That she ran to somewhere she believed safer?


Does the wife sell flowers? No Did she have a lot of trouble with the authorities after the first murder because she was a suspect due to the flower connection? No


Was the first flower death a murder? Accident? This Suicide? Was the wife near when it happened? In the same city at least Did it happen to someone she was close to? No Did she cause it? No Relevant why the man wants ro kill his wife? No
Enjay
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby jumpingjacks » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:13 pm

So in the murderer's version, his wife ran away from him because:
she was scared of him? she didn't love him anymore? she felt guilty about something? was angry with him about something?
Does his wife blame him for the accident that befell Flower Woman #1? Would she blame him for Flower Woman #2 (the one he did kill)? Does our murderer have a connection to Flower Woman#1? Was he the one driving the train? Was he on the platform?
User avatar
jumpingjacks
 
Posts: 788
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:54 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Enjay » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:22 pm

So in the murderer's version, his wife ran away from him because:
she was scared of him? she didn't love him anymore? This she felt guilty about something? was angry with him about something?
Does his wife blame him for the accident that befell Flower Woman #1? No Would she blame him for Flower Woman #2 (the one he did kill)? No Does our murderer have a connection to Flower Woman#1? No Was he the one driving the train? Was he on the platform? No to both
Enjay
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby wolfier » Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:06 am

Was his wife so troubled by the accidental death of Flower Woman #1 that she start having bad dreams? In which she was the flower woman? And was the husband somehow depicted in the nightmare as one who pushed her in the dream?
wolfier
 
Posts: 969
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:42 am

Re: [Enjay] Swings and roundabouts

Postby Enjay » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:41 pm

Was his wife so troubled by the accidental death of Flower Woman #1 that she start having bad dreams? In which she was the flower woman? And was the husband somehow depicted in the nightmare as one who pushed her in the dream? No to all
Enjay
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK


Return to Active Lateral Thinking Puzzles

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests