[Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

An archive of solved lateral thinking puzzles.

Moderators: peter365, Balin, kalira, JenBurdoo, Tiger

[Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby Balin » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:42 am

Dutch returned to the scene of his crime in order that he might not be caught. Once this was realized, he was caught. How?
Balin
 
Posts: 6938
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 11:12 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby invisiblemimsy » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:50 am

Is his name relevant, e.g. his nickname, his nationality?
Did he choose to return to the sotc or was he compelled to? Relevant what crime?
[list of crimes]?
Bleeding as in blood or as in swearing?
User avatar
invisiblemimsy
 
Posts: 1520
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:16 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby Earnest » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:51 am

Did he return soon after the crime? Did he have some trace on his body? Scene of crime: was it crowded? Was him the only one aware of the crime scene? Was the crime scene been voluntarily left empty? Crime scene = on the street? In a house? In a public place? A pub?

Was him caught because he came back to the crime scene (had he not come back would he have been caught?)?
Earnest
 
Posts: 1858
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby wolfier » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:28 pm

nature of the crime relevant? did he return to erase evidence? nature of the place relevant, e.g. is it a port or an airport and he's trying to escape the jurisdiction?
wolfier
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:42 am

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby Balin » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:45 am

Is his name relevant, e.g. his nickname, his nationality? No
Did he choose to return to the sotc or was he compelled to? He chose to
Relevant what crime? [list of crimes]? As per LTPF standards, murder
Bleeding as in blood or as in swearing? Swearing, but don't focus on the title

Did he return soon after the crime? Yes Did he have some trace on his body? No Scene of crime: was it crowded? No Was him the only one aware of the crime scene? Assume Yes Was the crime scene been voluntarily left empty? Yes Crime scene = on the street? In a house? This In a public place? A pub?

Was him caught because he came back to the crime scene (had he not come back would he have been caught?)? Yes, but he also would have been caught if he did not come back

nature of the crime relevant? See above did he return to erase evidence? Yes nature of the place relevant See above e.g. is it a port or an airport and he's trying to escape the jurisdiction? Clever guess, but not this
Balin
 
Posts: 6938
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 11:12 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby Earnest » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:43 am

Murder by poisoning someone? Killing with a weapon (knife? Gun? Glasses? Others?) By making someone falling down? Relecant who he killed? His wife? A friend?

Were the investigations already began when he came back to the crime scene? Were there police in the house? Relevant? Did he try to dissimulate a suicide of the victim? Relevant? Did he want to hide the weapon with which he committed the crime? Fingerprints relevant? Relevant why/how he was found guilty? E.g. he poisoned the victim and when he came back to his house he made something that let police understand that a bottle was poisoned (e.g. the bottle of water was full but he threw it away because he knew it was poisoned)?
Was him the only one aware of something relevant? Did he make something suspicious? Did he know the house where he committed the crime? Was it his house? Did he know something he could not have known had he not been the murderer? (E.g. he said he had never been in the house but he knew where all the stuffs were and welcome the police as if it was his house? He answered the bell but he was supposed to be elsewhere?) Technology relevant? (E.g. fingerprints on touch screens?...)
Earnest
 
Posts: 1858
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby jumpingjacks » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:38 am

PM'ed a guess! Sounds a little like it, but hopefully I'm wrong so I can play =)
User avatar
jumpingjacks
 
Posts: 948
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:54 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby Balin » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:47 pm

Murder by poisoning someone? Killing with a weapon (knife? This Gun? Glasses? Others?) By making someone falling down?
Relecant who he killed? Somewhat His wife? A friend? No - he did not personally know the killer

Were the investigations already began when he came back to the crime scene? No Were there police in the house? At some point Relevant? Yes Did he try to dissimulate a suicide of the victim? No Relevant? There's no suicide or attempted one in this puzzle Did he want to hide the weapon with which he committed the crime? No, but OTRT Fingerprints relevant? Yes Relevant why/how he was found guilty? Yes E.g. he poisoned the victim and when he came back to his house he made something that let police understand that a bottle was poisoned (e.g. the bottle of water was full but he threw it away because he knew it was poisoned)? Not like this, but a nice idea
Was him the only one aware of something relevant? Yes Did he make something suspicious? No (if I understand correctly) Did he know the house where he committed the crime? Yope Was it his house? No Did he know something he could not have known had he not been the murderer? No (E.g. he said he had never been in the house but he knew where all the stuffs were and welcome the police as if it was his house? He answered the bell but he was supposed to be elsewhere?) Both great guesses, but not the right ones Technology relevant? No (E.g. fingerprints on touch screens?...) That's a clever clue for a mystery to turn on - not this one, unfortunately

PM'ed a guess! Sounds a little like it, but hopefully I'm wrong so I can play =) Your hope is granted; you haven't yet spoiled this one this time...
Balin
 
Posts: 6938
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 11:12 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby jumpingjacks » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:12 pm

Great! I like a good murder mystery.

So he returned to the scene of the crime to erase evidence. Was this due to a mistake he made at the time of the murder? just after? Did he only remember that he had left some evidence behind after he'd left the crime scene the first time? Or was this part of the plan? Did he have to leave the crime scene in a hurry the first time? In between the murder and the returning to the crime scene, did he have to appear somewhere to create an alibi for himself? Was he the one who called the police to the house?

He kills this person with a knife - relevant in which body part he stabs them? Is the victim ham? (I love not capitalising this, it always amuses me) When he leaves the crime scene the first time, does he take the knife with him? Is the knife left in the body? On the floor?
User avatar
jumpingjacks
 
Posts: 948
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:54 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby Balin » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:28 pm

Great! I like a good murder mystery. Hope you enjoy this one!

So he returned to the scene of the crime to erase evidence. Yes Was this due to a mistake he made at the time of the murder? Yes just after? Focus more on just before the murder Did he only remember that he had left some evidence behind after he'd left the crime scene the first time? Yes Or was this part of the plan? No Did he have to leave the crime scene in a hurry the first time? Yes In between the murder and the returning to the crime scene, did he have to appear somewhere to create an alibi for himself? No Was he the one who called the police to the house? Yesish

He kills this person with a knife - relevant in which body part he stabs them? No Is the victim ham? (I love not capitalising this, it always amuses me) Yes, the victim Has Ascended Mortality (and is also Human/Adult/Male) When he leaves the crime scene the first time, does he take the knife with him? No Is the knife left in the body? Yes On the floor? So no
Balin
 
Posts: 6938
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 11:12 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby jumpingjacks » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:23 am

Can we call the victim Graham?
Just before the murder, did Dutch and Graham have an argument? Would you describe it as a murder done in the heat of the moment? Or was it premeditated? Did the knife belong to Dutch? to Graham? neither? Just a random knife conveniently lying about?
Is it Graham's house?

Was the knife-in-Graham the evidence that Dutch wished to erase?

Yesish to Dutch calling the police to the house -- did he mean to call them? Did he actually pick up the phone and dial? Or were they called as a result of his actions? Did he set an alarm off? Did he cause such a racket that the police were alerted? Were the police summoned to the house before the murder? during the murder? just after the murder? (and is this why Dutch left in a hurry, he heard sirens/knew the police were coming?) or perhaps they were only called to the house after Dutch had returned to the scene?
Did Dutch pretend to be the one to discover the body?

Besides Dutch, Graham and the police, are there any other relevant people involved?
Has Dutch been hired to kill Graham?
User avatar
jumpingjacks
 
Posts: 948
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:54 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby wolfier » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:49 am

To get the obvious out of the way given what's known - was he trying to get rid of the fingerprints on the knife, or trying to remove the knife?
Was the handle of the knife visible and outside of the body, or was the entire knife, handle included somehow left inside the body?
By doing so, was he caught red-handed? Or did it create further evidence that later got him arrested?
wolfier
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:42 am

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby GalFisk » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:57 am

Did he go back in order to: erase fingerprints? Remove DNA? Remove blood? Remove a weapon? Remove or mangle telltale signs, such as making the wound seem like it could be from any knife and not specifically a dagger, for instance? Remove footprints? Relevant how he traveled back to the scene? How he left it? Did he leave other evidence when he was removing the first? Public transport relevant? Phone tracking? Payment tracking?
GalFisk
 
Posts: 8123
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 8:03 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby Earnest » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:04 am

Sorry if repeating questions but I'm in a hurry like the murderer xD...

So...was the knife a kitchen knife? Relevant? Did the victim hurt also the murderer? Were there blood traces too? Did he succeed in hiding proves? If so by cleaning the knife? Removing it from the body so that an unjustified hole in the body has been found? Relevant in which bidy part he used the knife against the victim? May I invoke the list of body parts? Did he wear gloves at the time of the murder? Did he throw the knife toward the victim? Did the victim knew and trust him? Was him in the same room of the victim who opened him the door and did not suspect of the murderer? Did he leave something personal in the crime scene?

WAG...did he put the knife inside the victim to hide it in the hurry? And maybe left also something personal in it?
Earnest
 
Posts: 1858
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby Balin » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:10 pm

Can we call the victim Graham? Sure
Just before the murder, did Dutch and Graham have an argument? Noish
Would you describe it as a murder done in the heat of the moment? Yes Or was it premeditated?
Did the knife belong to Dutch? to Graham? This neither? Just a random knife conveniently lying about?
Is it Graham's house? Yes

Was the knife-in-Graham the evidence that Dutch wished to erase? No

Yesish to Dutch calling the police to the house -- did he mean to call them? Yope Did he actually pick up the phone and dial? Noish Or were they called as a result of his actions? No Did he set an alarm off? No Did he cause such a racket that the police were alerted? No Were the police summoned to the house before the murder? This, same -ish (and that -ish is really an FA) during the murder? just after the murder? (and is this why Dutch left in a hurry, he heard sirens/knew the police were coming?) or perhaps they were only called to the house after Dutch had returned to the scene? No
Did Dutch pretend to be the one to discover the body? No

Besides Dutch, Graham and the police, are there any other relevant people involved? For the sake of the puzzle, I'm going to say No
Has Dutch been hired to kill Graham? No

To get the obvious out of the way given what's known - was he trying to get rid of the fingerprints on the knife, or trying to remove the knife? Neither
Was the handle of the knife visible and outside of the body This or was the entire knife, handle included somehow left inside the body?
By doing so, was he caught red-handed? Yope (I will say that he was not "caught in the act") Or did it create further evidence that later got him arrested? Noish

Did he go back in order to: erase fingerprints? Remove DNA? Remove blood? Remove a weapon? This Remove or mangle telltale signs, such as making the wound seem like it could be from any knife and not specifically a dagger, for instance? Remove footprints? No to rest
Relevant how he traveled back to the scene? No How he left it? No Did he leave other evidence when he was removing the first? No Public transport relevant? Phone tracking? Payment tracking?

Sorry if repeating questions but I'm in a hurry like the murderer xD... All good!

So...was the knife a kitchen knife? No (it was a letter opener) Relevant? Not really
Did the victim hurt also the murderer? No Were there blood traces too? None other than from the stabbing
Did he succeed in hiding proof? Yes, but only briefly If so by cleaning the knife? No Removing it from the body so that an unjustified hole in the body has been found? No
Relevant in which bidy part he used the knife against the victim? Not really May I invoke the list of body parts? Chest
Did he wear gloves at the time of the murder? Yes, good q Did he throw the knife toward the victim? No
Did the victim knew and trust him? No and No Was him in the same room of the victim who opened him the door and did not suspect of the murderer? No Did he leave something personal in the crime scene? YES, good q

WAG...did he put the knife inside the victim to hide it in the hurry? No And maybe left also something personal in it? No
Balin
 
Posts: 6938
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 11:12 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby Earnest » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:21 pm

Something personal = a clock? Glasses? Something related to his clothing? The gloves or part of them (e.g. they got caught)? Did he enter the apartment of the victim without being noticed? I asked because otherwise he could have left for instance his dog in the apartment. Did he fight with the victim? Did he left a body part there (a tooth)? Was the something relevant on the knife? In the body of the victim? Is the smell relevant somehow? Technology relevant?

Did investigators meet him before he came back to the apartment? Were investigators able to catch him because they noticed that something was missing? They noticed his name? Something belonging to Dutch? Was him caught/suspected immediately? Did Dutch go back to remove the knife? Another weapon? Is digestion relevant? Did Dutch want to remove the knife in order to remove something else from the stomach of the victim?

Were there letters on the knife? E.g. his name? Maybe he went back to erase the name? So that investigators noticed that the kmife had been tampered?...little WAG --> he called the police from the apartment and went putaide of it not to be suspected of murder. He remembered to have used a knife with his name on it. He went to erase his name but did half of the job so that investigators were able to recognize him as the murderer.
Earnest
 
Posts: 1858
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby jumpingjacks » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:36 pm

Were the police actually already in the house at the time of the murder? Did Dutch call them there on a different, non-murderous matter?
Dutch returned to retrieve a weapon, correct? But the letter-opener isn't the weapon in question? And he also left something personal at the crime scene. Is this personal item the weapon? Are there three separate objects: letter-opener, another weapon, personal item? Or just the letter-opener, and one more weapon/personal item?
It was relevant that he was wearing gloves during the murder... so can we assume that he did not leave any fingerprints behind? (after the first time anyway) Was it actually suspicious for him not to have left fingerprints? Was there something there that he should have touched, and if it came out clean, it would look like he had wiped it, thus casting suspicion on him? Did he perhaps return to add his fingerprints?
User avatar
jumpingjacks
 
Posts: 948
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:54 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby Balin » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:02 pm

Something personal = a clock? Glasses? Something related to his clothing? The gloves or part of them (e.g. they got caught)? No to all
Did he enter the apartment of the victim without being noticed? Yes I asked because otherwise he could have left for instance his dog in the apartment. Good idea, but there are no animals involved in the case
Did he fight with the victim? Yes, good q
Did he left a body part there (a tooth)? No
Was the something relevant on the knife? In the body of the victim? Neither
Is the smell relevant somehow? Technology relevant? No to both

Did investigators meet him before he came back to the apartment? No
Were investigators able to catch him because they noticed that something was missing? They noticed his name? Something belonging to Dutch? No to all
Was him caught/suspected immediately? No, but irrel
Did Dutch go back to remove the knife? No Another weapon? Yes
Is digestion relevant? No Did Dutch want to remove the knife in order to remove something else from the stomach of the victim? Clever thought, but No

Were there letters on the knife? No E.g. his name? Thus, no Maybe he went back to erase the name? So that investigators noticed that the kmife had been tampered?...little WAG --> he called the police from the apartment and went putaide of it not to be suspected of murder. He remembered to have used a knife with his name on it. He went to erase his name but did half of the job so that investigators were able to recognize him as the murderer. I like this scenario too. It's not the correct one, but it's a lateral one on its own

Were the police actually already in the house at the time of the murder? Yes, keep going... Did Dutch call them there on a different, non-murderous matter? No
Dutch returned to retrieve a weapon, correct? Right But the letter-opener isn't the weapon in question? Right And he also left something personal at the crime scene. Right Is this personal item the weapon? Yes it is!
Are there three separate objects: letter-opener, another weapon, personal item? Or just the letter-opener, and one more weapon/personal item? This one
It was relevant that he was wearing gloves during the murder... so can we assume that he did not leave any fingerprints behind? (after the first time anyway) That's correct Was it actually suspicious for him not to have left fingerprints? No Was there something there that he should have touched, and if it came out clean, it would look like he had wiped it, thus casting suspicion on him? Good idea, but it's not this Did he perhaps return to add his fingerprints? No
Balin
 
Posts: 6938
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 11:12 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby Earnest » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:19 pm

Nail clipper relevant? Razor? Shaver? Sonethibg that perfectly fits Dutch's feet? His head? His hand/hands? An umbrella? Something related to an illness suffered by Dutch? Something directly imputable to D?

So he did not kill the victim with the letter opener right? If not, did he kill G with the weapon? Was D a collectionist?
Personal item/weapon = a conventional weapon (a gun? Knife? Sword? Katana? A bow? Darts?...)

G and D had a fight right? So relevant what happened during the fight? Maybe the victim took the personal item of D? If so to defend himself? Did D use the weapon against G? Is blood relevant?

WAG --> Were the two part of an historical war reenactment with true weapons? If so, maybe the two or just D, were assigned catalogued weapons. Of course the society which set up the reenactment signed the person who was assigned a specific weapon to, so that when D left the catolgued weapon there, it was easy for investigators to find the murderer.
Earnest
 
Posts: 1858
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby jumpingjacks » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:20 pm

The police were already in the house... was Graham a police officer? Is Dutch? Was there one police officer in the house at the time of the murder? more than one? more than four? Were they there on official police business? to investigate something of personal interest to them? Just on a social call? To visit Graham?

Dutch's weapon: a gun? a knife? a wrench? rope? candlestick? pipe? (I've got cluedo on the brain!) Is it something he normally carries around with him? Is it recognisably his? Does Dutch know the police officers? Does Graham?

Dutch and Graham did not personally know each other, but did they know of each other? Would they recognise each other on the street? Would the recognition be one-way? Would Graham recognise Dutch? Would Dutch recognise Graham? Perhaps they know of each other by name alone? Are they related through work?

Would you say Dutch had nefarious reasons for entering the house secretly? Was he trying to steal something? To blackmail Graham? To find something out? To spy?
User avatar
jumpingjacks
 
Posts: 948
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:54 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby Balin » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:21 am

Nail clipper relevant? Razor? Shaver? Sonethibg that perfectly fits Dutch's feet? His head? His hand/hands? It's a handheld weapon but it's not fitted to his hand specifically An umbrella? Something related to an illness suffered by Dutch? Something directly imputable to D? Um... it's something he carried regularly. No to rest

So he did not kill the victim with the letter opener right? The letter opener was the murder weapon, actually If not, did he kill G with the weapon? Thus, No Was D a collectionist? No
Personal item/weapon = a conventional weapon I'd say so; it's not uncommon (a gun? Knife? Sword? Katana? A bow? Darts?...) But none of these

G and D had a fight right? Yes So relevant what happened during the fight? Yes Maybe the victim took the personal item of D? YOPE! If so to defend himself? Yope, see previous Did D use the weapon against G? He tried to Is blood relevant? No

WAG --> Were the two part of an historical war reenactment with true weapons? No If so, maybe the two or just D, were assigned catalogued weapons. Of course the society which set up the reenactment signed the person who was assigned a specific weapon to, so that when D left the catolgued weapon there, it was easy for investigators to find the murderer. Clever WAG, but Nope

The police were already in the house... was Graham a police officer? No... Is Dutch? ...Yes! Was there one police officer in the house at the time of the murder? Yes (just Dutch) more than one? more than four?
Were they there on official police business? to investigate something of personal interest to them? Just on a social call? To visit Graham? No to all

Dutch's weapon: a gun? a knife? a wrench? rope? candlestick? pipe? None of these (I've got cluedo on the brain!) Hmm... I haven't played in a while... Is it something he normally carries around with him? Yes Is it recognisably his? Yope Does Dutch know the police officers? See above Does Graham? No

Dutch and Graham did not personally know each other, but did they know of each other? Dutch knew of Graham; Graham did not know of Dutch Would they recognise each other on the street? Assume No Would the recognition be one-way? Would Graham recognise Dutch? Would Dutch recognise Graham? Perhaps they know of each other by name alone? Just one way; see above Are they related through work? No

Would you say Dutch had nefarious reasons for entering the house secretly? Yes Was he trying to steal something? To blackmail Graham? This is closest, but you don't need to know why he snuck into the house for the solution, so I'd suggest leaving this alone To find something out? To spy?
Balin
 
Posts: 6938
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 11:12 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby jumpingjacks » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:32 am

Was it one of those taser/cattle prod/electric type weapons that police have sometimes?

Is Graham a criminal? Has he been in prison? Has he escaped? Is he a wanted man?

Does Dutch pretend to investigate the death of Graham? Is this his cover for returning to the scene?
User avatar
jumpingjacks
 
Posts: 948
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:54 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby Balin » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:35 am

Was it one of those taser/cattle prod/electric type weapons that police have sometimes? No

Is Graham a criminal? Has he been in prison? Has he escaped? Is he a wanted man? No to all

Does Dutch pretend to investigate the death of Graham? Yes Is this his cover for returning to the scene? Yes
Balin
 
Posts: 6938
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 11:12 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby jumpingjacks » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:57 pm

Did he get caught because there was no way he could have known that there had been a murder to investigate? So his 'investigating' it seemed suspicious? Did he pretend that he had been called to the scene? That he heard something suspicious, and thus investigated? Saw something suspicious? Did he even give an explanation for what tipped him off at all?

Yope to "recognisably his" - is it recognisably a police weapon, though not necessarily recognisable as his personally? Is it a baton? one of those weapon/torch things? Is it pepper spray? Some other spray-type thing?

In between the fight and Dutch returning, is it relevant to know where exactly his weapon was? On the floor next to Graham? Clutched in Graham's hands? In Graham's possession somehow?

His gloves are relevant... are fingerprints relevant at all? When he returned the second time, was he still wearing his gloves? Does he always wear gloves? Perhaps it is a quirk of his - that's Officer Dutch, always wearing gloves..?
User avatar
jumpingjacks
 
Posts: 948
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:54 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby Balin » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:07 pm

Did he get caught because there was no way he could have known that there had been a murder to investigate? No So his 'investigating' it seemed suspicious?
Did he pretend that he had been called to the scene? That he heard something suspicious, and thus investigated? This Saw something suspicious? Did he even give an explanation for what tipped him off at all? He did

Yope to "recognisably his" - is it recognisably a police weapon, though not necessarily recognisable as his personally? Yes Is it a baton? Yes one of those weapon/torch things? Is it pepper spray? Some other spray-type thing?

In between the fight and Dutch returning, is it relevant to know where exactly his weapon was? It was on the floor in the corner of the room, a decent distance from Graham's body On the floor next to Graham? Clutched in Graham's hands? In Graham's possession somehow? No, but good questions

His gloves are relevant... are fingerprints relevant at all? Yes When he returned the second time, was he still wearing his gloves? Yes Does he always wear gloves? Yes Perhaps it is a quirk of his - that's Officer Dutch, always wearing gloves..? It's not a relevant quirk of his - assume he's not the only policeman who always wears gloves
Balin
 
Posts: 6938
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 11:12 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby wolfier » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:14 pm

Did Dutch take off his gloves relevantly at any point? Did the baton slipped off his hands because it was too slippery to hold it while wearing gloves? Was the baton stained with blood? Did anyone recognise him not having his baton between the murder and the return?
wolfier
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:42 am

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby Balin » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:21 pm

Did Dutch take off his gloves relevantly at any point? No Did the baton slipped off his hands because it was too slippery to hold it while wearing gloves? No Was the baton stained with blood? No Did anyone recognise him not having his baton between the murder and the return? No
Balin
 
Posts: 6938
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 11:12 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby Earnest » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:32 am

Is it something like the baton (if I correcrly understood what a baton is) was electrically activated in one side. Dutch simply take it without caring wheather it was charged/activated meaning that he knew at least which part was active that it was not active?

Did someone notice that he came without his baton?...does the baton activate just if the fingerprint of the owner are recognized?

Were the gloves somehow burned/had signes? E.g. he activated the baton but by fighting with Graham he got burned and a small hole on the gloves formed so that when he touched the baton this one activated automatically revealing its own owner
Earnest
 
Posts: 1858
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby wolfier » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:19 pm

When the baton is recovered, was it in the same physical state as when it was left behind?
When the baton is recovered, did it make it obvious something was at the spot it was left behind?
wolfier
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:42 am

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby Balin » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:04 pm

Is it something like the baton (if I correcrly understood what a baton is) was electrically activated in one side. Dutch simply take it without caring wheather it was charged/activated meaning that he knew at least which part was active that it was not active? No - the type of baton I'm referring to is a simple club made of wood or toughened plastic

Did someone notice that he came without his baton? No ...does the baton activate just if the fingerprint of the owner are recognized? No

Were the gloves somehow burned/had signes? No E.g. he activated the baton but by fighting with Graham he got burned and a small hole on the gloves formed so that when he touched the baton this one activated automatically revealing its own owner Not a bad idea, but No

When the baton is recovered, was it in the same physical state as when it was left behind? Yes
When the baton is recovered, did it make it obvious something was at the spot it was left behind? No
Balin
 
Posts: 6938
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 11:12 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby jumpingjacks » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:31 pm

Did Dutch hit Graham with the baton? Did Graham hit Dutch with it? Prior to Dutch's retrieving it, if you were to run it through forensics, would you get any clues? related to Graham? to Dutch?

By the way, I've been assuming that Dutch goes to "investigate" on his own, is this a correct assumption?
User avatar
jumpingjacks
 
Posts: 948
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:54 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby Earnest » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:07 am

So we said that fingerprints are relevant...first of all are we referring to D's fingerprints or to G's fingerprints? Feet fingerprints (e.g. D removed his shoes and sock, had a fight with G and kick G with the bare foot)? Hand fingerprints? Moreover, is the presence of fingerprints relevant or the absence of them relevant? Relevant what the baton was used for?
Were there fingerprints on the baton? D's fingerprints? Or maybe D had a sybiling with similar fingerprints?

Ok I have a little WAG I have noticed that they are appreciated --> Before leaving G's house, D took G phone. Indeed D was unsure about the apartment number of G so he made a phone call to G in order to see wheather a cell phone rang and he could identify the apartment. Now, however there was his number in the G's phone.
When D came back to the crime scene with G's phone in gis pocket, he made a movement to grab the baton but in that way he made G's finger touch the Phone on his pocket which activated itself.
Earnest
 
Posts: 1858
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby Balin » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:52 am

Did Dutch hit Graham with the baton? No, but he attempted to Did Graham hit Dutch with it? No Prior to Dutch's retrieving it, if you were to run it through forensics, would you get any clues? Yes related to Graham? Yes, see below to Dutch? No

By the way, I've been assuming that Dutch goes to "investigate" on his own, is this a correct assumption? It is

So we said that fingerprints are relevant...first of all are we referring to D's fingerprints or to G's fingerprints? To Graham's - I've been waiting for someone to ask this! Feet fingerprints (e.g. D removed his shoes and sock, had a fight with G and kick G with the bare foot)? No Hand fingerprints? Yes Moreover, is the presence of fingerprints relevant or the absence of them relevant? Presence (smart question) Relevant what the baton was used for? See above
Were there fingerprints on the baton? Yes D's fingerprints? No Or maybe D had a sybiling with similar fingerprints? No - fortunately for investigators, fingerprints aren't similar between siblings

Ok I have a little WAG I have noticed that they are appreciated --> Before leaving G's house, D took G phone. Indeed D was unsure about the apartment number of G so he made a phone call to G in order to see wheather a cell phone rang and he could identify the apartment. Now, however there was his number in the G's phone.
When D came back to the crime scene with G's phone in gis pocket, he made a movement to grab the baton but in that way he made G's finger touch the Phone on his pocket which activated itself. Clever idea, but No
Balin
 
Posts: 6938
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 11:12 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby Earnest » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:38 pm

So G's fingerprints were on the baton right? Were them just on the baton? On Dutch also? Did Dutch notice them? If so relevant that he already knew that there were fingerprints on the baton? Relevant how he noticed them? Relevant where the fingerprints were on the baton?

Maybe D was sure that the fingerprints were of the victim even without having analysed them because he knew that they had a fight? He did not even suspect that the fingerprints were of the murderer...
Earnest
 
Posts: 1858
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby jumpingjacks » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:27 pm

So during the fight, Dutch attempted to hit Graham with his baton, but Graham grabbed it? And flung it into a corner of the room? Thus leaving his fingerprints on it? (And Dutch, casting wildly about for another weapon, lights upon a letter opener, and with a yell of fury, plunges it deep into Graham's chest...)
Did Dutch manage to wipe Graham's fingerprints off after retrieving the baton? Or was it the presence of Graham's fingerprints on his baton that led to his demise?
User avatar
jumpingjacks
 
Posts: 948
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:54 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance

Postby Balin » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:29 pm

So G's fingerprints were on the baton right? Yes Were them just on the baton? They were on other objects in the room On Dutch also? No Did Dutch notice them? No If so relevant that he already knew that there were fingerprints on the baton? Relevant how he noticed them? Relevant where the fingerprints were on the baton? On the barrel, see below

Maybe D was sure that the fingerprints were of the victim even without having analysed them because he knew that they had a fight? He did not even suspect that the fingerprints were of the murderer... See below

So during the fight, Dutch attempted to hit Graham with his baton, but Graham grabbed it? And flung it into a corner of the room? Thus leaving his fingerprints on it? Precisely (And Dutch, casting wildly about for another weapon, lights upon a letter opener, and with a yell of fury, plunges it deep into Graham's chest...) (Not so dramatically, but yes, pretty much)
Did Dutch manage to wipe Graham's fingerprints off after retrieving the baton? He did not Or was it the presence of Graham's fingerprints on his baton that led to his demise? Yes indeed.

****SPOILER****

Dutch, a policeman, broke into Graham's house; Graham walked in on him. Dutch attempted to attack Graham with his police baton but Graham was able to grab it and throw it aside. In the struggle, Dutch stabbed Graham to death and fled. But he realized he'd left his baton in the room with Graham's body, so he had to return to get it, and did so in the guise of investigating the crime. The actual investigator (who came a short time later) eventually worked out this series of events, and proved it by finding Graham's fingerprints on the baton.

(This is the solution for my second-place submission to the most recently completed r/AceAttorney case maker contest. The current contest is still going on; I'll post my submission as a puzzle sometime after this contest ends.)

Nicely done Jackie and Earnest for working through it!
Balin
 
Posts: 6938
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 11:12 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance (*CUT AND PRINT*)

Postby jumpingjacks » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:06 pm

Awesome! Good luck for the current contest!
User avatar
jumpingjacks
 
Posts: 948
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:54 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: [Balin] It's not a bleeding tea dance (*CUT AND PRINT*)

Postby Earnest » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:35 am

Many thanks and good luck! You deserve it!
Earnest
 
Posts: 1858
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am


Return to Solved Lateral Thinking Puzzles

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests