[TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

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[TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby TDGperson » Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:18 am

There is a game that the players cannot always win normally, but there is a way to always win.
Last edited by TDGperson on Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby WiZ » Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:01 am

Is it a game as we would conventionally think of it, i.e. a fun recreational structure with (usually) rules and objectives? Or is it more like the game of life, or the game of love?

Is it the game (you just lost)?
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby wunderland » Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:23 am

Global thermonuclear war?
Is it a casino game? a game that the "house" always wins (rather than the players)?
More generally, is it a game that can be won by someone who is not a player?
Is this puzzle about game theory?
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby TDGperson » Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:08 am

WiZ:

Is it a game as we would conventionally think of it, i.e. a fun recreational structure with (usually) rules and objectives? no/yopeOr is it more like the game of life, or the game of love? no

Is it the game (you just lost)? no


wunderland:

Global thermonuclear war? no
Is it a casino game? a game that the "house" always wins (rather than the players)?no
More generally, is it a game that can be won by someone who is not a player?no
Is this puzzle about game theory?no

Correction:

The puzzle statement should read :

There is a game that the players cannot always win normally, but there is a way to always win.

instead of :

There is a game that the players can never win normally, but there is a way to always win.

I corrected this.
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby GalFisk » Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:38 pm

Are the players humans? Is it a team game? Computer game? Can one win by cheating? Bending the rules? Changing the rules? Is the game unwinnable by design?
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby TDGperson » Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:25 pm

Are the players humans? yesIs it a team game?yes Computer game?no/yope Can one win by cheating? noBending the rules? yes/yopeChanging the rules? noIs the game unwinnable by design?yes
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby AlbatrossLover » Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:43 pm

Are there 2 teams involved in the game? More? Are the teams comprised of 2 people? More than 2? >10? >50? >100? Is the Internet relevant? Social media?

Do the people who play this game play it because they want to? Because they have to?
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby TDGperson » Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:35 am

Are there 2 teams involved in the game?yes More? Are the teams comprised of 2 people? More than 2? one of them, yes >10? >50? >100? No to the rest Is the Internet relevant? Social media? No to both

Do the people who play this game play it because they want to? Because they have to? irrelevant
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby GalFisk » Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:04 am

Is it a card game? Board game? Mixed/augmented reality game? Mind game? Children's game? Sport? Does it require certain technology? Are both teams supposed to lose? Just not win? Is the purpose: fun? Education? Exercise? Excitement? Risk?
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby AlbatrossLover » Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:45 am

Does the other team have only one person? No people at all?
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby Earnest » Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:09 am

Tic-Tac-Toe relevant? Though there is a way to never lose there...

Does the game involve:strategy? Calculation? Is it known worldwide? Are dice relevant? Gambling? Cards?

" there is a way to always win." --> one and only one? is drawing considered a win depending on which team you belong to? (a sort of, the defense always wins so that if the winner/loser is determined by a scoring, a draw in the scoring is equivalent to the win of a team). Is there a number of moves to be made? Do both teams win? Only one? Do the winner(s) know to have won from the first move? Do losers?

Are logical moves involved? Forcing moves? Something along the line of chess? Shogi? Majong?

Is the aim of the game: score more points? Individuate more of something? Chess mate? Have more of something wrt opposite team?
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby TDGperson » Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:09 pm

GalFisk

Is it a card game?this is closest Board game? Mixed/augmented reality game? Mind game? Children's game? Sport?no to rest Does it require certain technology?yes and no Are both teams supposed to lose?no Just not win? noIs the purpose: fun? Education?this is closest Exercise? Excitement? Risk?

AlbatrossLover

Does the other team have only one person? yesNo people at all?

Earnest

Tic-Tac-Toe relevant?no Though there is a way to never lose there...

Does the game involve:strategy? yesCalculation?no Is it known worldwide? yesAre dice relevant? noGambling?no noCards?yes

" there is a way to always win." --> one and only one?irrelevant is drawing considered a win depending on which team you belong to? no(a sort of, the defense always wins so that if the winner/loser is determined by a scoring, a draw in the scoring is equivalent to the win of a team). Is there a number of moves to be made? only one move per playerDo both teams win? noOnly one?yes Do the winner(s) know to have won from the first move? noDo losers?no

Are logical moves involved?yes Forcing moves? noSomething along the line of chess? Shogi? Majong?none of these

Is the aim of the game: score more points? Individuate more of something? Chess mate? Have more of something wrt opposite team?none of these
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby trebor » Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:46 pm

Is it played with a standard deck of playing cards? With tarot cards? Sport cards?
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby TDGperson » Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:21 pm

trebor

Is it played with a standard deck of playing cards? With tarot cards? Sport cards? None of these
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby AlbatrossLover » Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:15 am

Is it played with flashcards? Some other type of educational aid thing?
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby TDGperson » Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:37 pm

Is it played with flashcards? Some other type of educational aid thing?

No to both
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby AlbatrossLover » Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:11 pm

Is it a trading card game? Cards against humanity? Is it played with blank cards you write stuff in? Credit/debit cards? Gift cards?
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby Earnest » Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:25 am

To be sure: say there are two teams, A and B. A is composed by n<5 people and team B is composed by just one person? As if B were the counter? Is team B disadvantaged in playing alone? If not, do rules balance his being alone vs a team? Or maybe being alone is and advantage in the game? Is the aim of B to eliminate all members of team A? Make more points than the opposite team? Forecast the opposite team' moves? Do teams change during the game? Are they fixed?

Do cards have a hierarchy? (e.g. ace bigger than king...)
Are ONLY cards involved? Or maybe cards are an addendum to the whole game? E.g. Monopoly (or Risiko)?
Can the game be always won under suitable conditions? E.g. it can be won if the two teams are composed by a certain number of members and if the cards of one team are a certain type of cards. Or maybe if one of the players is blind and known Morse Code? Or maybe if there are not enough players so that guessing is very simple? Does the will be winner know in advance that he will win for sure? Do players have a certain number of cards on their hands? If so the same number each one? Are the cards on the hands of the players randomly distributed? Drawn from a deck? Drawn from a deck in each turn? Do players play with an open hand? Are cards hidden to the opposite team? To team members?

Card game: Rat-A-Tat-Cat? Sushi go? UNO? Smack it!? Codenames? Bang? Ion?

Is guessing relevant? is luck? are probabilities involved?

Does the strategy to always win depend on who begins first? Is the winning team the one moving first? The one moving second? Can we assume a regular deck of 52 cards? Or are particular cards employed (e.g. UNO cards...)? or maybe blank cards?

Is there a strategy to always win regardless of what the other team plays?
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby TDGperson » Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:36 pm

AlbatrossLover

Is it a trading card game? Cards against humanity? Is it played with blank cards you write stuff in? Credit/debit cards? Gift cards? None of these

Earnest

To be sure: say there are two teams, A and B. A is composed by n<5 people and team B is composed by just one person? Yes, 1 person vs. 3 peopleAs if B were the counter?No Is team B disadvantaged in playing alone? No If not, do rules balance his being alone vs a team? yes Or maybe being alone is and advantage in the game? No Is the aim of B to eliminate all members of team A? Make more points than the opposite team? Forecast the opposite team' moves? None of these Do teams change during the game? NoAre they fixed? Yes

Do cards have a hierarchy? (e.g. ace bigger than king...) No
Are ONLY cards involved? Yes Or maybe cards are an addendum to the whole game? E.g. Monopoly (or Risiko)?
Can the game be always won under suitable conditions? Yes E.g. it can be won if the two teams are composed by a certain number of members and if the cards of one team are a certain type of cards. Or maybe if one of the players is blind and known Morse Code? Or maybe if there are not enough players so that guessing is very simple? None of these Does the will be winner know in advance that he will win for sure? No (unless they use the way to always win, then yes)Do players have a certain number of cards on their hands? Yes If so the same number each one? No Are the cards on the hands of the players randomly distributed? NoDrawn from a deck? YesDrawn from a deck in each turn? No Do players play with an open hand? No Are cards hidden to the opposite team? YesTo team members?Yes

Card game: Rat-A-Tat-Cat? Sushi go? UNO? Smack it!? Codenames? Bang? Ion? None of these

Is guessing relevant? Yes and no is luck? No are probabilities involved? Yes

Does the strategy to always win depend on who begins first? No Is the winning team the one moving first? The one moving second? This (assuming "winning team" means the team that has the way to always win) Can we assume a regular deck of 52 cards? No Or are particular cards employed (e.g. UNO cards...)? Yesor maybe blank cards? No

Is there a strategy to always win regardless of what the other team plays? Yes
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby Earnest » Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:48 pm

assuming "winning team" means the team that has the way to always win --> yes I mean that (also for what follows)

Or are particular cards employed (e.g. UNO cards...)? Yes --> sorry I did not understand. Is it UNO? If not, do cards display: numbers? figures? writings? colors? are the cards piled on a deck?

Relevant how many cards each player has? If so, calling A team of 1 person and B the team of 3 people, team A has Moree scads than B? Do players in B have each one a card and player in A 3 cards? Or maybe multiples (i.e. A has 3*k cards and B k)? Relevant?

Aim of thee game: guessing who has a certain card?
Is the game ancient?
Calling W the strategy to always win:
probabilities involved? Yes --> so does the second team (S) have always more odds than the first (F) to do something? To have a card? To draw a card? Do both teams have to guess? If not, only team B? Team A? If only A has to guess, relevant that for 3 people probabilities are split one third probabilities each? Does A have to draw from B's cards? The opposite? Can we assume that the "move" for both teams is thee same (e.g. drawing a card from someone else belonging to the opposite team?) odds to add up to a certain number? Odds to have a certain combination of cards? odds to have a certain types of cards on the hand? Do players have to have the same number of cards on the hand for each turn?

Is the game one shot (e.g. like in poker: divided into different turns but each turn has nothing to ado with the preceding)? Is the game divided into turns? If so, does something relevant happens at the end of each turn? Players exchange the cards? player change the roles? Players speak with each other? Players shuffle cards?
Are cards shuffled at any time during thee game? Is there a main deck from which cards are drawn? If so, is it compulsory to draw a card from the deck at each turn? Do players in B have to draw 3 cards each at each turn? Is S made when 4 cards remain at the end of the deck?
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby TDGperson » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:25 pm

Earnest

assuming "winning team" means the team that has the way to always win --> yes I mean that (also for what follows)

Or are particular cards employed (e.g. UNO cards...)? Yes --> sorry I did not understand. Is it UNO? Not uno If not, do cards display: numbers? figures? writings? None of these, but this is closestcolors? are the cards piled on a deck? no/irrelevant

Relevant how many cards each player has? yes If so, calling A team of 1 person and B the team of 3 people, team A has Moree scads than B? Do players in B have each one a card and player in A 3 cards? yesish. Or maybe multiples (i.e. A has 3*k cards and B k)? Relevant?

Aim of thee game: guessing who has a certain card?
Is the game ancient?
Calling W the strategy to always win:
probabilities involved? Yes --> so does the second team (S) have always more odds than the first (F) to do something? no To have a card? noTo draw a card?no Do both teams have to guess?no If not, only team B?yes Team A? no If only A has to guess, relevant that for 3 people probabilities are split one third probabilities each?noDoes A have to draw from B's cards? The opposite?this (but not "draw") Can we assume that the "move" for both teams is thee sameno(e.g. drawing a card from someone else belonging to the opposite team?) odds to add up to a certain number? noOdds to have a certain combination of cards? noishodds to have a certain types of cards on the hand? no Do players have to have the same number of cards on the hand for each turn?no

Is the game one shot (e.g. like in poker: divided into different turns but each turn has nothing to ado with the preceding)? yes Is the game divided into turns? no If so, does something relevant happens at the end of each turn? Players exchange the cards? player change the roles? Players speak with each other? Players shuffle cards?

Are cards shuffled at any time during thee game? noIs there a main deck from which cards are drawn? no If so, is it compulsory to draw a card from the deck at each turn? Do players in B have to draw 3 cards each at each turn? no, and FA Is S made when 4 cards remain at the end of the deck? no
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby Hobbsicle » Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:08 am

Is this something like a mathematical exercise? Do the cards have colors on them? Letters? Does the three-person team relevantly communicate? Do I understand right that the one-person team is the one who has the possible winning strategy?

Does the three-person team play their "turn" all at once? Necessarily first? Necessarily second? Do they play their turn by: declaring something? Laying down a card (or cards)? If cards, in a particular order? Are they trying to match something?

Does the one-person team truly have only one card? Or does he "play" one card out of multiple possibilities?
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby TDGperson » Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:16 am

Is this something like a mathematical exercise? noDo the cards have colors on them? noLetters? yesDoes the three-person team relevantly communicate? yes and noDo I understand right that the one-person team is the one who has the possible winning strategy?no, the team with 3 people has the strategy to always win

Does the three-person team play their "turn" all at once? yesNecessarily first? noNecessarily second?yes Do they play their turn by: declaring something? yesLaying down a card (or cards)?no If cards, in a particular order? Are they trying to match something?none of these

Does the one-person team truly have only one card? noOr does he "play" one card out of multiple possibilities?no

Hint: there is a special object/item that the team of 3 need to always win. Without it, they can win sometimes but not always
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby GalFisk » Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:40 am

Is the item part of the game? Is it a card?
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby TDGperson » Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:24 pm

Is the item part of the game? Is it a card?No to both
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby GalFisk » Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:41 am

Is the item made from: stone? Glass? Ceramics? Metal? Plastic? Compsite? Fiber? Cloth? Horn/bone/teeth? Skin/fur/leather? Paper/cardboard? Hair/wool? Plant fiber? Plant? Food? Drink? Drug? Solid? Liquid? Gas? Is it manmade? Mass-produced? Electrical? Electronic? Noisy? Emitting light?
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby TDGperson » Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:43 am

Is the item made from: stone? Glass? Ceramics? Metal? Plastic? Compsite? Fiber? Cloth? Horn/bone/teeth? Skin/fur/leather? Paper/cardboard? Hair/wool? Plant fiber? Plant? Food? Drink? Drug? Solid? Liquid? Gas?None of these Is it manmade?This, sometimes Mass-produced? Electrical? SometimesElectronic? Noisy? Emitting light?
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby markobr » Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:15 pm

An item that is neither solid, nor liquid, nor a gas? Some virtual object then? Or a mixture of solids, liquids, and/or gases?

Are more than the six cards the players hold part of the game? If so: Are they used in a particular round of the game without belonging to one player (e.g. they are laid out open for the players to see)? Or are they set aside completely for this particular round after the six cards have been selected?

Is the game ever played with the explicit rule that the method for always winning may not be used (or causes the team using it to lose)?
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby TDGperson » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:39 pm

An item that is neither solid, nor liquid, nor a gas?That's right Some virtual object then? No Or a mixture of solids, liquids, and/or gases?No

Are more than the six cards the players hold part of the game? noIf so: Are they used in a particular round of the game without belonging to one player (e.g. they are laid out open for the players to see)? Or are they set aside completely for this particular round after the six cards have been selected?

Is the game ever played with the explicit rule that the method for always winning may not be used (or causes the team using it to lose)?No

RECAP:

There is a game that is 1 person vs. 3 people and involves 6 cards with letters on them. Each player makes only one move. The 1 player team goes first, then the 3 player team all play their moves at the same time. The cards are hidden to team members, but not to the opposite team.

The team with 3 people have a method that guarantees that they win. However, they cannot be guaranteed to win normally. This method involves object/items that are neither solid, liquid, gas or a mixture.

Hint:

The first move in the game is: team with 1 player choose 3 of the 6 cards, and gives one card each to the team with 3 people.

Correction:

Are cards hidden to the opposite team? Yes Should be no
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby wwhere » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:49 pm

Is the item needed to be able to always win fire?
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby TDGperson » Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:05 pm

Is the item needed to be able to always win fire? No but OTRT
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby AlbatrossLover » Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:07 am

Is the item light? A black/UV light? Some sort of plasma?
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby CoffeeBean » Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:37 pm

Is the game also a sort of "trick", or manipulated sequence? Is it Three-Card Monte, or some variation of it?
Could the game be played by 4 people who are all learning it at the same time? Is it helpful or necessary for at least one of the players to have experience each time it is played? If all 4 participants have a lot of experience with the game does this somehow change the pattern or flow of steps to the sequence?
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby TDGperson » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:26 am

Is the item light?Sometimes A black/UV light?Sometimes Some sort of plasma?No

Is the game also a sort of "trick", or manipulated sequence? Is it Three-Card Monte, or some variation of it?None of these
Could the game be played by 4 people who are all learning it at the same time?Yes Is it helpful or necessary for at least one of the players to have experience each time it is played?No If all 4 participants have a lot of experience with the game does this somehow change the pattern or flow of steps to the sequence?No


Hint:
Is the purpose: fun? Education?this is closest Exercise? Excitement? Risk? This is important
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby Mimino » Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:19 pm

Is it always the same six cards that are used? or is it six randomly drawn cards from a larger deck?
It is obvious that player 1 knows which cards the other three players have (he gives them the cards). But does then also each of the opposite players know which cards player 1 has kept? does he show his cards after having given the three cards to the other players?
Does the move of the opposite team involve: showing a card? putting a card on the table (open/hidden)? exchange cards between them? select one of their three cards?
Are the players of the opposite team allowed to communicate before they make their move?
Is after the move of the second team immediately clear which side has won? Could there be also a draw?
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Re: [TDGPerson] Winning the unwinnable

Postby TDGperson » Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:47 pm

Is it always the same six cards that are used? yes or is it six randomly drawn cards from a larger deck? no
It is obvious that player 1 knows which cards the other three players have (he gives them the cards). But does then also each of the opposite players know which cards player 1 has kept? yesdoes he show his cards after having given the three cards to the other players?no
Does the move of the opposite team involve: showing a card? putting a card on the table (open/hidden)? exchange cards between them? select one of their three cards?None of these
Are the players of the opposite team allowed to communicate before they make their move?Before player 1 gives them cards, yes. After : no
Is after the move of the second team immediately clear which side has won? yesCould there be also a draw?no
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