[android18] Bookworms

[android18]

Hi everyone, not sure if anyone recognises my username but I joined this site a couple of years ago but kinda stopped a year or so ago because I was focusing on college work and things, but I've recently rekindled my interest in this stuff, so hello

Joel lies dead in a house, whilst George lies dead in another house. After reading a book, Elliott knows what happened.

This is based off a TV show and some of you might recognise what's going on at some point, so please PM if it's early on! Thanks

[Zanreo]

Joel, George and Elliott = HAM? Are the houses Joel and George are lying in their own homes? Did they die in the houses? Did they both die in the same way? Were they murdered? Or did they die due to something happening in the house? Are the houses on the same street, in the same city, in the same country? Do J and G's houses have any relevant similarities? Differences?

The book Elliott is reading: fiction? Nonfiction? Does it remind him of something? Something like a murder based on what's written in the book, and all the details match? Is he trying to figure out the cause of their deaths?

[invisiblemimsy]

Are Joel, George and Elliott related in anyway? eg. family, friends, workmates, college or schoolmates, genetically, other?
Are any of them fictional and/or in the book? Is there a murder or murders? Of J, G or E? Is E a policeman or private detective? Are any of their occupations relevant? Are their ages relevant, if so, list of ages?
Is the book relevantly biography, autobiography, dictionary, educational? Did E get t from a shop, library, other?
TV show relevant at all, or just where you got your inspiration?
Is it relevant how long they have been dead?

[android18]

Zanreo

Joel, George and Elliott = HAM?Yes to both Are the houses Joel and George are lying in their own homes?Yes to both Did they die in the houses?Yes Did they both die in the same way?No Were they murdered?Yes Or did they die due to something happening in the house?In Joel's case, yes Are the houses on the same street, in the same city, in the same country?This, but same city could also work Do J and G's houses have any relevant similarities? Differences?No to both

The book Elliott is reading: fiction?This Nonfiction? Does it remind him of something?Yes Something like a murder based on what's written in the book, and all the details match? YopeIs he trying to figure out the cause of their deaths?Yes

invisiblemimsy

Are Joel, George and Elliott related in anyway? eg. family, friendsThis is closest for J and G, workmates, college or schoolmates, genetically, other For E?
Are any of them fictionalNo... and/or in the book?...but yes Is there a murder or murders? Of J, GJ and G or E? Is E a policemanpolice detective or private detective? Are any of their occupations relevant?Yes Are their ages relevant, if so, list of ages?It's relevant that they're both adults
Is the book relevantly biographyYope to this, autobiography, dictionary, educational? Did E get t from a shop, library, other?
TV show relevant at all, or just where you got your inspiration?Just this
Is it relevant how long they have been dead?Not really, but expand

[invisiblemimsy]

Were they murdered by the same person? Using the same M.O.? At roughly the same time, significantly different times, relevant who was murdered first? Methods of murder: poison, blunt force, stabbing, poison, medical method, strangulation, other? (Same questions for each victim)
So to clarify, George was murdered, but Joel wasn't? Was one killed because of the other? Was the killer a serial killer? Motive: money, jealousy, love, to cover up something, for the satisfaction of killing, hatred... (same Q's for each victim)
Is there a detective in the book Elliott is reading?
Do SOME of the details match the book, if so number of details?
When you say they are in the book, do you mean that J&G are victims in the book? Or in the book for other reasons? Is it a yearbook, a directory? Advertising, Who's Who?
Have they been dead for (number of) minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years?
Are Joel and George lovers? Are THEIR occupations relevant?

[Zanreo]

Was the book a fictional biography? Did it have characters based on J and G? Were J and G famous? Did they both die on the same day?

[android18]

invisiblemimsy

Were they murdered by the same person?No Using the same M.O.?No At roughly the same timeThis, significantly different timesBut yope to this, relevant who was murdered first?Yes Methods of murder: poisonThis, blunt forceAnd this, stabbing, poison, medical method, strangulation, other? (Same questions for each victim)
So to clarify, George was murdered, but Joel wasn't?Both George and Joel were murdered Was one killed because of the other?Yes Was the killer a serial killer?No Motive: money, jealousy, loveSort of this for one, to cover up something, for the satisfaction of killing, hatredAnd this for the other... (same Q's for each victim)
Is there a detective in the book Elliott is reading?No
Do SOME of the details match the bookNo, if so number of details?
When you say they are in the book, do you mean that J&G are victims in the book? Or in the book for other reasons?This Is it a yearbook, a directory? Advertising, Who's Who?I'm not sure what you mean by this
Have they been dead for (number of) minutes, hoursThis, days, weeks, months, years?
Are Joel and George lovers?No Are THEIR occupations relevant?Yes

Zanreo

Was the book a fictional biography?No Did it have characters based on JYes to J and G? Were J and G famous?G is famous Did they both die on the same day?Yope

[Zanreo]

Was J a fan of G? Is E? Did J work for G? Was J killed first? Or G? Did J and G relevantly look alike?

[android18]

Was J a fan of G?No Is E?Not really a fan, but has an interest Did J work for G?No Was J killed first?Technically this Or G? Did J and G relevantly look alike?No

[Balin]

Was Joel the shot victim? Was George?
Was Joel attacked first, but took longer to die?
Relevant the exact murder weapon (for both deaths)?

[android18]

Was Joel the shot victim? Was George? Not sure what you mean by this
Was Joel attacked first, but took longer to die? George was attacked first, but yes
Relevant the exact murder weapon (for both deaths)? For George

[Balin]

Rewording (because I misread an earlier set of answers):
Was Joel the victim who was killed by poison? Was George?
Did the poison take effect instantly? Did it take a long time to kill its victim?
Relevant how the poison entered its victim's body?
By any chance, did Joel kill George? Did George kill Joel?

[android18]

Rewording (because I misread an earlier set of answers):
Was Joel the victim who was killed by poison? Was George?This
Did the poison take effect instantly?Nope... Did it take a long time to kill its victim?Took a couple of days
Relevant how the poison entered its victim's body?Yes
By any chance, did Joel kill George?He did indeed Did George kill Joel?

[Balin]

Did George ingest the poison? Inhale it? Was it injected? Absorbed through the skin?

[android18]

Did George ingest the poison?This Inhale it? Was it injected? Absorbed through the skin?

[Balin]

Did George drink the poison? Eat it?
Is the poison that killed George universally considered a poison? (For a counter-example, I read a mystery where the victim was allergic to peanuts and was killed with a peanut oil-laced apple; the book mentioned that peanut oil was considered a poison for the purpose of that case.)

[android18]

Did George drink the poison?This Eat it?
Is the poison that killed George universally considered a poison?Yes (For a counter-example, I read a mystery where the victim was allergic to peanuts and was killed with a peanut oil-laced apple; the book mentioned that peanut oil was considered a poison for the purpose of that case.)

Probably worth mentioning that the specifics of the poison used to kill George are not relevant; only it how it happened and that it took a while to die.

[invisiblemimsy]

So, the order of play is: Joel poisons George, Joel dies, George dies 2 days later? Does it matter what the poison was? Was it a nerve agent? Are spies , MI5, MI6, FBI relevant? Does Joel die by suicide, accident, natural causes, murder, negligence? Does Elliott or anyone else die?

Is it relevant where Elliott got the book - library, shop, school, found it, stole it, gift? Is the author, title or subject matter relevant? Is it Joel who is in the book? Is he a character, the author, the foreword writer, other?

Are Joel and George associates, workmates, enemies, partners in crime, part of a syndicate, the Mafia or other gang?

[android18]

So, the order of play is: Joel poisons George, Joel dies, George dies 2 days later?Correct Does it matter what the poison was?No, but it would be useful to know how Was it a nerve agent? Are spies , MI5, MI6, FBI relevant?No to all Does Joel die by suicide, accident, natural causes, murderThis, negligence? Does ElliottNo or anyone else die? Yope to this

Is it relevant where Elliott got the bookNot where... - libraryBut assume this, shop, school, found it, stole it, gift? Is the author, title or subject matter relevant?Yes to author and subject matter Is it Joel who is in the book?Yes Is he a characterA character is based on him, yes, the author, the foreword writer, other?

Are Joel and George associates, workmates, enemiesThis is closest, no to rest, partners in crime, part of a syndicate, the Mafia or other gang?

[invisiblemimsy]

Is the poison slow-release? Something which takes two days to affect the body? A recreational or illegal drug like heroin, coke etc? Is it specifically an overdose or would this poison kill at any dose? A foodstuff, or something that can be hidden in a food? Topical, injectable, other method of application? Did Joel know it would kill George? Did he use it on anyone else?

So Joel is murdered by someone outside of the puzzle? Should we explore? Someone connected to George? The other people who die, are they directly relevant to the plot or just context/scenery? Events leading up to the murder/s relevant? Does Elliott die at some stage? (Can't remember if I've asked that).

Subject matter is yopishly a biography, you said... Of G, J or E, or related to them in some way? Bio of someone else? Part bio, part something else? A story based on real life? A biographical poem? Something in the index, contents, cover or main body of the book?

[android18]

Is the poison slow-release?Yes Something which takes two days to affect the body? A recreational or illegal drug like heroin, coke etc? Is it specifically an overdoseProbably this or would this poison kill at any dose? A foodstuff, or something that can be hidden in a food?This Topical, injectable, other method of application? Did Joel know it would kill George?Yes Did he use it on anyone else? No

Remember it's not relevant what sort of poison was used, but knowing how he was poisoned may be helpful

So Joel is murdered by someone outside of the puzzle?Indeed! Should we explore?Yes Someone connected to George?Not really The other people who die, are they directly relevant to the plotYes or just context/scenery? Events leading up to the murder/s relevant?Yes Does Elliott die at some stage? (Can't remember if I've asked that). He does not

Subject matter is yopishly a biography, you said... Of G, JThis or E, or related to them in some way? A character in the book is based on J, hence the yope to biography Bio of someone else? Part bio, part something else? A story based on real life?Yes A biographical poem? Something in the index, contents, cover or main body of the book? If you mean what Elliott reads to solve the mystery, it is in the main body

[invisiblemimsy]

Did Joel spike George's drink or food himself, did he spike something George would help himself to, e.g. ketchup, vinegar, salt, sugar? Was the poison something George was allergic to, e.g. peanut butter? Were they at a restaurant, bar etc? Was the poison tasteless or would it have needed something strong-flavoured to cover it up?

Is Joel or George a serial killer? Do they each kill people alone? Do either of them know the person who kills Joel? Are they all in the same business?

[android18]

Did Joel spike George's drinkThis or food himself, did he spike something George would help himself to, e.g. ketchup, vinegar, salt, sugar? Was the poison something George was allergic to, e.g. peanut butter?Irrelevant Were they at a restaurant, bar etc?No Was the poison tastelessThis but again, not really relevant or would it have needed something strong-flavoured to cover it up?It was covered up with something strong flavoured but not for this purpose

Is Joel or George a serial killer?Neither Do they each kill people alone?Joel killed George alone, yes. George did not kill anyone Do either of them know the person who kills Joel?Joel does, George has met them before Are they all in the same business?Joel and George are...

[invisiblemimsy]

Drugs relevant?

[android18]

Drugs relevant?No

[wolfier]

relevant how Elliott linked the character in the book with Joel? Is the book a comic? Written by someone in the same city/country?

Did George realise he was being murdered before he died? And by Joel?

Was Joel killed out of revenge of George's death? If so by someone close to George? His lover? His fan? Someone in his family? Ordered by George himself?

Did Joel and George compete professionally? Over a love matter? Was Joel's house relevant because the killer has easy access to it? Was the house damaged during Joel's attack?

[android18]

relevant how Elliott linked the character in the book with Joel?Yes Is the book a comic?No, but I guess it could work as long as the same story is being told Written by someone in the same city/country?Yope to city

Did George realise he was being murdered before he died? And by Joel?No to both

Was Joel killed out of revenge of George's death?No If so by someone close to George? His lover? His fan? Someone in his family? Ordered by George himself?No to these

Did Joel and George compete professionally?Yes but not really relevant Over a love matter?No Was Joel's house relevant because the killer has easy access to it?Yes Was the house damaged during Joel's attack?Not particularly

[wolfier]

Did the book detailed Joel's murder? George's? Was George's murder a direct or indirect cause of Joel's murder? Or do they share a common cause? Joel and George compete professionally - is their exact profession relevant?

Was George famous due to his profession? Does it mean Joel is not as successful as George because in the profession, success would lead to fame? Are they writers? Photographers? Painters? Is either George or Joel the author of the book? Is someone else? If so, is that someone else the killer of Joel? Had George relevantly worked for Joel (or vice-versa)? Did George get famous because of Joel's work?

[android18]

Did the book detailed Joel's murder? George's?No to both Was George's murder a direct or indirect cause of Joel's murder?No Or do they share a common cause?Noish Joel and George compete professionally - is their exact profession relevant?Yes

Was George famous due to his profession?Yes Does it mean Joel is not as successful as George because in the profession, success would lead to fame? Joel is not as successful, but Joel's level of success is not relevantAre they writers?This Photographers? Painters? Is either GeorgeThis or Joel the author of the book? Is someone else? If so, is that someone else the killer of Joel?So no to this Had George relevantly worked for Joel (or vice-versa)?Not quite worked for but Did George get famous because of Joel's work?Yope


HINT (if anyone wants it): George has another relevant profession.

[Insight]

Hi android18!, i do remember you.

Did Elliott knew Joel and George personally?
The book was a novel involving a crime?
Did Joel murder George because he recognized himself in George´s book?
The outsider who killed Joel is h/a/m?
If the book has not been written would Joel be still alive? would George? Plagiarism relevant?

[android18]

Hi android18!, i do remember you. Hello and thanks!

Did Elliott knew Joel and George personally? No
The book was a novel involving a crime? Yes
Did Joel murder George because he recognized himself in George´s book? Yes
The outsider who killed Joel is h/a/m? HAF but it could probably work with HAM
If the book has not been written would Joel be still alive?Yes would George?Yes Plagiarism relevant? No

Some good questions there.

[trebor]

Is Joel’s murderer romantically involved with him? With George? Was Joel depicted negatively in the book? Does the book imply that J is guilty of something IRL that he could receive punishment for? Are there any other relevant characters in the book? That also exist IRL? If yes, Joel’s murderer? More? Does anyone relevantly die in the book? If yes, is it Joel? Someone else who really exists?

[android18]

Is Joel’s murderer romantically involved with him?No but explore With George? Was Joel depicted negatively in the book?Not as such Does the book imply that J is guilty of something IRL that he could receive punishment for?Yes, but the book is only based on Joel and the prospect of punishment is unlikely and therefore irrelevant Are there any other relevant characters in the book?Yes That also exist IRL?Yes If yes, Joel’s murderer?No More? Does anyone relevantly die in the book?Yes, but beware of going OTWT If yes, is it Joel?No Someone else who really exists?Yes

[wolfier]

Is that third person who died IRL and in the book, also killed by Joel? If so, was it a murder, and is it relevant how George got to know about this?

Assuming the first assumption is correct is the killer(s) of Joel the romantic interest of this other victim? Did the killer of Joel also read the book for some reason, and deduced from George's death/imminent death that Joel killed her lover, thus killed Joel for revenge?

Relevant that George's poison took days to kill him? Did George do anything relevant after he had realised he was dying?

Did Joel know about George was privy to his previous wrongdoing (murder or not)? If so...did George also take part in the other crime (murder or not)?

[trebor]

Did George even realize that he was dying at any point? Are any presenting symptoms of the poison relevant? Did George feel ill as a result of the poison? Did he think he had an illness of some sort?

Was George poisoned in his home? In Joel’s? In Joel’s murderer’s? Someone else’s? At a bar/pub/restaurant/coffee shop? At a gala or fete of some sort? At a poison factory? Does this happen in modern times? Is the method George wrote by relevant? (Computer, typewriter, pen and ink?) Was Joel’s murderer present when J poisoned G? If so, did she realize what was happening? Did she learn or figure it out before she murdered J? Did J tell her what he had done?

Does IRL Joel share a trait? characteristic? with the fictionalized version of himself that leads Elliott to deducing that the character is based on Joel? If not, is the deduction based on something the character does? Says? Something G has done or said? (In an interview promoting the book, or something?)

Does anybody other than G and J relevantly die in real life? Or just in the book?

[android18]

wolfier

Is that third person who died IRL and in the book, also killed by Joel?No If so, was it a murderNo, and is it relevant how George got to know about this?Yes

Assuming the first assumption is correct is the killer(s) of Joel the romantic interest of this other victim?No Did the killer of Joel also read the book for some reason, and deduced from George's death/imminent death that Joel killed her lover, thus killed Joel for revenge? No but going somewhat OTRT. Seems to be an FA here

Relevant that George's poison took days to kill him?Not really Did George do anything relevant after he had realised he was dying?No

Did Joel know about George was privy to his previous wrongdoing (murder or not)?Not sure what you mean by this If so...did George also take part in the other crime (murder or not)?No, but is involved in a way


trebor

Did George even realize that he was dying at any point?Probably not Are any presenting symptoms of the poison relevant?No Did George feel ill as a result of the poison?Yes Did he think he had an illness of some sort? Probably but irrelevant

Was George poisoned in his home?No In Joel’s?Yes In Joel’s murderer’s? Someone else’s? At a bar/pub/restaurant/coffee shop? At a gala or fete of some sort? At a poison factory? Does this happen in modern times?Yes Is the method George wrote by relevant?No (Computer, typewriter, pen and ink?) Was Joel’s murderer present when J poisoned G?Yope If so, did she realize what was happening?No Did she learn or figure it out before she murdered J?No Did J tell her what he had done?No

Does IRL Joel share a trait? characteristic? with the fictionalized version of himself that leads Elliott to deducing that the character is based on Joel?No to both If not, is the deduction based on something the character does? Says? Something G has done or said? (In an interview promoting the book, or something?)No to all

Does anybody other than G and J relevantly die in real life?This Or just in the book? And this, but beware of FA

[wolfier]

Is Joel aware that George knew what he did?

Also, to be explicit, is the 3rd person who died in the book, the same person who died IRL? Did the person die in the book die naturally? disease? murder? (same Q for the person who died IRL)

Is the other person who died in the book or IRL related to Joel's murderer? Had anyone relevantly got drunk at some point? Was George a witness of a crime that Joel committed? Did Joel's killer also read the book?

Finally, was anyone murdered by mistake?

[android18]

Is Joel aware that George knew what he did? George doesn't know what Joel has done, but yes, Joel thinks that George may have a clue.

Also, to be explicit, is the 3rd person who died in the book, the same person who died IRL?Yes Did the person die in the book die naturally? disease? Thismurder? (same Q for the person who died IRL)

Is the other person who died in the book or IRL related to Joel's murderer?Yes! Had anyone relevantly got drunk at some point?Yes Was George a witness of a crime that Joel committed?Not a witness but explore Did Joel's killer also read the book?No but explore

Finally, was anyone murdered by mistake? No


HINT as there seems to be confusion: There are two other relevant people (including the one already covered) who died in the book and in real life.

Would a recap be useful at this point?

[wolfier]

At one point, it was mentioned that G and J are closest to being friends.
At one other point, it was mentioned that G and J are closest to being enemies.

Are they both enemies and friends at the same time? At different times? Or just in general "friendly competition" since they're both writers?
In the "at different times" case, were George and Joel friends and then became enemies after Joel has recognised himself in the book?
Has George relevantly blackmailed Joel?

Did Joel's killer(s) decide to kill Joel: after reading George's book? after knowing George wrote the book? after seeing George's last visit to Joel's house? did the person who got drunk relevantly talk Joel's killer(s)? Was George the person who relatively got drunk? Was Joel?

Did Elliott make the connection because he also worked on the case of the very crime depicted in the book?

Leap: was anyone relevantly wrongly accused? If so, is that person who was wrongly accused the person who died of disease (while incarcerated)? Therefore Joel's killer killed for revenge after learning about this fact from drunk Joel?

[android18]

At one point, it was mentioned that G and J are closest to being friends.
At one other point, it was mentioned that G and J are closest to being enemies. Indeed

Are they both enemies and friends at the same time?No At different times?First 'friends', then enemies Or just in general "friendly competition" since they're both writers? Not this
In the "at different times" case, were George and Joel friends and then became enemies after Joel has recognised himself in the book? Yes!
Has George relevantly blackmailed Joel? No

Did Joel's killer(s) decide to kill Joel: after reading George's book? after knowing George wrote the book? after seeing George's last visit to Joel's house?This is when Joel was killed, yes did the person who got drunk relevantly talk Joel's killer(s)?Noish... Was George the person who relatively got drunk? Yes Was Joel?

Did Elliott make the connection because he also worked on the case of the very crime depicted in the book? No but vaguely OTRT

Leap: was anyone relevantly wrongly accused? If so, is that person who was wrongly accused the person who died of disease (while incarcerated)? Therefore Joel's killer killed for revenge after learning about this fact from drunk Joel? No

[wolfier]

the question was...did Joel's killer decide to kill Joel when George last visited? Or had they been wanting to kill Joel all along, just waiting for the perfect opportunity which happened to be George's visit?

Was Joel killed while George was drunk and was still at Joel's house? did Joel's killer want to frame George for killing Joel? did George leave Joel's house on his own or was he taken away from Joel's house by someone?

[android18]

the question was...did Joel's killer decide to kill Joel when George last visited?Mainly this... Or had they been wanting to kill Joel all along, just waiting for the perfect opportunity which happened to be George's visit? ...but partially this. Something was confirmed to the killer when George visited.

Was Joel killed while George was drunk and was still at Joel's house?Killed several hours after George left. did Joel's killer want to frame George for killing Joel?No did George leave Joel's house on his own This or was he taken away from Joel's house by someone?

[wolfier]

Something was confirmed to the killer when George visited - that the novel is based on Joel, and that Joel has committed a crime in the book towards a victim closely related to Joel's killer? Is that victim the same person who died by disease?

[android18]

Something was confirmed to the killer when George visited - that the novel is based on Joel No, and that Joel has committed a crime in the book towards a victim closely related to Joel's killer? Joel has 'committed' something towards someone closely related to his killer, but not a crime. Is that victim the same person who died by disease? Not a victim, but yes

[wolfier]

I see. The other thing I could think of is...Joel was having an affair with the person in the book, and Joel's killer is either Joel's spouse/other lover, or the person in the book's spouse/other lover, who had suspected the two to have an affair for long, and it was confirmed by George, somehow, after George became drunk and said/do something he normally would not said/do if George were sober.

The crime described in the book is a related crime that Elliott handled (thus he could make the connection), but it's tangential to the plot - does it matter what it was and was it committed by Joel? Was it victimless? If that crime had not been committed, would Joel still want to kill George after having learnt that the character was based on him?

Just by chance - did the other person who die out of the plot, also die of disease / natural causes / murder? If that person was killed, was he killed by the person who died of disease?

Has George always been a writer or was he also a police detective in the past (thus instead of Elliott, he handled the case - and Elliott recognised him as such since they used to be colleagues?)

[android18]

I see. The other thing I could think of is...Joel was having an affair with the person in the book, and Joel's killer is either Joel's spouse/other lover, or the person in the book's spouse/other lover, who had suspected the two to have an affair for long, and it was confirmed by George, somehow, after George became drunk and said/do something he normally would not said/do if George were sober. No, but this is somewhat OTRT, explore.

The crime described in the book is a related crime that Elliott handled (thus he could make the connection) FA, Elliott did not handle the crime, but it's tangential to the plot - does it matter what it was Not precisely and was it committed by Joel? Yes Was it victimless? No If that crime had not been committed, would Joel still want to kill George after having learnt that the character was based on him? No and for a very relevant reason...

Just by chance - did the other person who die out of the plot, also die of disease / natural causes / murder? This If that person was killed, was he killed by the person who died of disease? No - he was killed by Joel

Has George always been a writer No! or was he also a police detective in the past No but OTRT (thus instead of Elliott, he handled the case - and Elliott recognised him as such since they used to be colleagues?) No

[wolfier]

Ok. For the sake of others still on this thread, this is my RECAP, i.e. no new question. Correct if you find anything missing or wrong.

Joel and George, both are writers, used to be friends. At that time, George was not a writer, and OTRT-ishly a "detective".

Sometime in the past, Joel committed a crime (not victimless). He killed a person (although it is not established yet whether it is the same crime that's being referred to). Another person also died, of disease. George was somehow involved in that crime but he did not take part in it.

George became an author, who wrote a novel involving a crime, with characters based on these 2 dead persons and Joel. George is famous writer, he got famous yopishly for Joel's work.

At one point Joel read the book George wrote, recognised himself and the crime he committed in the book, thus George became an enemy of Joel, this forms the motive of why Joel killed George, out of hatred. However, George did not know what Joel did (it is not established what George did not know, but so far it points to Joel's other murder. The person who was killed by Joel died in real life and was also in the novel)

George visited Joel's house, was poisoned by Joel through a spike in his drink. George was also drunk at some point in Joel's house. George (who did not realise he was dying) got back home and died sometime later due to the slow-acting poison. Joel was killed by blunt force a short while after George had left, by someone who had access to his place. Joel's killer was present when George was in Joel's house but only yopishly present when George was poisoned. The motive of this murder is somewhat related to love, and George's visit confirmed a suspicion that the Joel's killer had, thus the decision to kill Joel. Joel knew his murderer, who is HAF (although HAM probably works). This murderer was not romantically related to Joel, but it is something worth exploring. This murderer is not present in the novel and did not read the novel. This murderer is closely related to the person who died of disease. Joel did something to this person (but it was not a crime).

If the book were not written, neither George nor Joel would be killed.

Elliott the police detective read the main body of the novel and figured out what happened. He knew neither Joel nor George personally. Elliott did not deduce it based on what George said about the novel, nor did he handle the crime depicted in the novel.

I had to add a question here: did what Joel did to the person who died of disease, although not a crime, caused the disease? Was a misunderstanding involved around this by Joel's killer?

[trebor]

Is the reason for George's visit to Joel's place relevant? Was he there to apprehend Joel? Was George involved in the investigation of Joel's previous murder? Was he involved in the legal part of it? Was George a lawyer? If so, was he Joel's defence? The prosecutor? Had Joel previously gone on trial? Was George a member of the jury? Was he the judge? Was George a reporter covering the case? Had Joel previously been tried for murder? And found not guilty? Guilty? Been acquitted? Is George's book a sort of fictionalized true crime thing? ("If I Did It", or something like that?)

Is Joel's murderer the widow of the person who died of disease? A blood relative? Is the exact disease relevant? Did Joel's first murder victim have something to do with the disease? With the treatment of the person who had it? With funding (for research, etc.)? Insurance? Were they a doctor? Nurse? Another health care worker?

[android18]

wolfier

Ok. For the sake of others still on this thread, this is my RECAP, i.e. no new question. Correct if you find anything missing or wrong. This is all fundamentally correct, just a few bits to clear up and a few hints which may help. Thank you for taking the time to write this recap.

Joel and George, both are writers, used to be friends. At that time, George was not a writer, and OTRT-ishly a "detective". The 'ish' is a big 'ish' and 'detective' may mislead.

Sometime in the past, Joel committed a crime (not victimless). He killed a person (although it is not established yet whether it is the same crime that's being referred to). It is Another person also died, of disease. George was somehow involved in that crime but he did not take part in it. George was involved as part of his former profession.

George became an author, who wrote a novel involving a crime, with characters based on these 2 dead persons and Joel. George is famous writer, he got famous yopishly for Joel's work. The 'yope' derives from the fact he used Joel as the basis for his character - this should be explored.

At one point Joel read the book George wrote, recognised himself and the crime he committed in the book, thus George became an enemy of Joel, this forms the motive of why Joel killed George, out of hatred. However, George did not know what Joel did (it is not established what George did not know, but so far it points to Joel's other murder. George knew about Joel's first murder. The person who was killed by Joel died in real life and was also in the novel)

George visited Joel's house, was poisoned by Joel through a spike in his drink. George was also drunk at some point in Joel's house. This is the same event - all that is relevant here is that George was killed by a slow-acting poison in his wine. George (who did not realise he was dying) got back home and died sometime later due to the slow-acting poison. Joel was killed by blunt force a short while after George had left, by someone who had access to his place. Joel's killer was present when George was in Joel's house but only yopishly present when George was poisoned. The motive of this murder is somewhat related to love, and George's visit confirmed a suspicion that the Joel's killer had, thus the decision to kill Joel. Joel knew his murderer, who is HAF (although HAM probably works). This murderer was not romantically related to Joel, but it is something worth exploring. This murderer is not present in the novel and did not read the novel. This murderer is closely related to the person who died of disease. Joel did something to this person (but it was not a crime).

If the book were not written, neither George nor Joel would be killed. Joel would possibly still be killed.

Elliott the police detective read the main body of the novel and figured out what happened. He knew neither Joel nor George personally. Elliott did not deduce it based on what George said about the novel, nor did he handle the crime depicted in the novel.

I had to add a question here: did what Joel did to the person who died of disease, although not a crime, caused the disease? Yes! Was a misunderstanding involved around this by Joel's killer? No

trebor

Is the reason for George's visit to Joel's place relevant? Yes Was he there to apprehend Joel? No Was George involved in the investigation of Joel's previous murder? Was he involved in the legal part of it? Was George a lawyer? If so, was he Joel's defence? The prosecutor? Had Joel previously gone on trial? Was George a member of the jury? Was he the judge? Was George a reporter covering the case? Had Joel previously been tried for murder? And found not guilty? Guilty? Been acquitted? No to these Is George's book a sort of fictionalized true crime thing? ("If I Did It", or something like that?) Not really - no one apart from Joel and George are aware of Joel's involvement in it.

Is Joel's murderer the widow of the person who died of disease? No but very much OTRT A blood relative? Yes Is the exact disease relevant? Yes Did Joel's first murder victim have something to do with the disease? No With the treatment of the person who had it? No With funding (for research, etc.)? No Insurance? No Were they a doctor? Nurse? Another health care worker? Who is 'they'?

[wolfier]

about the disease caused by Joel's action: psychological? hereditary? chronic? acute?

[android18]

was the disease caused by Joel's action: psychological? hereditary? chronic? This, no to rest acute?

[wolfier]

not a question but to clarify: it was mentioned earlier that "George doesn't know what Joel has done, but yes, Joel thinks that George may have a clue.". And then there is the assertion that George knew about Joel's first murder. Is it a mistake? Or did Joel think George may have a clue about something else (e.g. whether there's a motive or whether the killing was intentional)?

[android18]

not a question but to clarify: it was mentioned earlier that "George doesn't know what Joel has done, but yes, Joel thinks that George may have a clue.". And then there is the assertion that George knew about Joel's first murder. Is it a mistake? Or did Joel think George may have a clue about something else (e.g. whether there's a motive or whether the killing was intentional)? I was initially referring to George being poisoned by Joel, but that's only relevant in that it demonstrates that George knows that Joel hates him for his book. But yeah, George knows about Joel's first murder. I apologise for the confusion.

[trebor]

Was George’s former profession illegal? Is the only relevant profession of Joel’s that of writer?

What I meant by “they” before was the other murder victim. Does this murder victim of J’s have any connection to insurance? To health care?

Is the chronic condition suffered by that other person the result of a violent act perpetrated by Joel? By work they were doing for Joel, or under Joel’s employ? Is it a back issue? Fibromyalgia? Arthritis? Carpal tunnel? Do/did they work in the book world?

Is the person related to this pain sufferer his sister? Mother? Daughter? Niece? Aunt? Grandmother? Cousin?

[wolfier]

is the disease: diabetes? cancer? if it is cancer, is it of the lungs? of the skin? of the breast? did Joel cause the onset of the disease, or did he do something to make an existing condition more serious? by action, or by inaction?

[android18]

trebor

Was George’s former profession illegal? No Is the only relevant profession of Joel’s that of writer? Yes

What I meant by “they” before was the other murder victim. Does this murder victim of J’s have any connection to insurance? To health care? No to both, OTWT

Is the chronic condition suffered by that other person the result of a violent act perpetrated by Joel? No By work they were doing for Joel, or under Joel’s employ? Is it a back issue? Fibromyalgia? Arthritis? Carpal tunnel? Do/did they work in the book world? No to all

Is the person related to this pain sufferer his sister? This Mother? Daughter? Niece? Aunt? Grandmother? Cousin?

wolfier

is the disease: diabetes? cancer? if it is cancer, is it of the lungs? of the skin? of the breast? No to all did Joel cause the onset of the disease, or did he do something to make an existing condition more serious? by action, or by inaction? I think I said earlier that Joel caused the disease, which is probably not quite true, so I apologise. However, Joel was indeed someway associated with the onset of the disease.

[trebor]

The night of George’s murder, was he at Joel’s place to blackmail him? For a family event? To obtain information about either Joel’s previous murder or the person who had the disease? Is he there because the sister is there? Is he interested in her romantically? Is she, in him? Was Georgeat Joel’s place to discuss something about the book in which Joel appeared? Another book? Was anybody other than those three there as well? Had George been invited by Joel? Was the George’s murder premeditated?

Relevant what genre Joel writes in? Was the diseased person (can we call him Dan, and his sister Diane?) a friend of Joel’s? An enemy? Another writer? A relative? Neighbour? Professional acquaintance? Lover? Former lover?

[android18]

The night of George’s murder, was he at Joel’s place to blackmail him? No For a family event? No To obtain information about either Joel’s previous murder or the person who had the disease? No Is he there because the sister is there? No Is he interested in her romantically? Is she, in him? Was Georgeat Joel’s place to discuss something about the book in which Joel appeared? No to these Another book? Yes Was anybody other than those three there as well? Yes Had George been invited by Joel? Yes, technically Was the George’s murder premeditated? Yesish

Relevant what genre Joel writes in? No Was the diseased person (can we call him Dan, and his sister Diane? Sure) a friend of Joel’s? Yes, explore An enemy? Another writer? A relative? Neighbour? Professional acquaintance? This too, explore Lover? Yes! Former lover?

[wolfier]

did George go to Joel's house because this new person (can we call him or her Jackie? also an author? or a fan of George?) who knew Joel but not George, wants an introduction? Want to discuss this another book (the contents of which does not matter?). So Joel wants to use this opportunity to kill George and hoped he could frame it on Jackie?

So Dan(ielle?) was a lover of Joel. Did Joel give her (sorry I have to ask...) STD? Was Joel's involvement that is related to the onset of Dan's disease intentional? By mistake? Thru action or inaction?

[android18]

did George go to Joel's house because this new person Which new person? (can we call him or her Jackie? also an author? or a fan of George?) who knew Joel but not George, wants an introduction? Want to discuss this another book (the contents of which does not matter?). So Joel wants to use this opportunity to kill George and hoped he could frame it on Jackie?

So Dan(ielle?) was a lover of Joel. Dan was Joel's lover, yes. Did Joel give her (sorry I have to ask...) STD? Dan contracted an STI, not necessarily through Joel, but through a 'lifestyle' they both took part in... Was Joel's involvement that is related to the onset of Dan's disease intentional? By mistake? Thru action or inaction? Joel's involvement is that he is in a relationship with Dan and that they both share the same lifestyle which led to Dan's contraction of the disease.

[wolfier]

This new person: "Was anybody other than those three there as well? Yes"

So the ailment is AIDS?

[android18]

This new person: "Was anybody other than those three there as well? Yes" FA

So the ailment is AIDS? Indeed it is.

[wolfier]

This new person: "Was anybody other than those three there as well? Yes" FA

So there was a person who was present in Joel's place during George's visit and the person was other than George, Joel and Diane. However, this person is not new. Therefore this person was mentioned before? Would it leave Elliott because the 2 persons who died weren't alive at that time? Or was it Dan, who was still dying but not dead at that point in time?

[android18]

So there was a person who was present in Joel's place during George's visit and the person was other than George, Joel and Diane. There were multiple, hence the FA However, this person is not new. They are new to this puzzle, yes Therefore this person was mentioned before? Would it leave Elliott because the 2 persons who died weren't alive at that time? Or was it Dan, who was still dying but not dead at that point in time? So none of these

[wolfier]

So Joel hosted a party about a new book? A large meeting? Where George is also one of the invitees? However since Joel only "technically" invited George, it's someone else who suggested to see him, and Joel only executed that invitation as the host? If so, is that someone else relevant to the plot? Or would a group of people wanted him in because George is famous?

[android18]

So Joel hosted a party about a new book? A large meeting? This Where George is also one of the invitees? Yes However since Joel only "technically" invited George, it's someone else who suggested to see him, and Joel only executed that invitation as the host? Yes! If so, is that someone else relevant to the plot? Not really... Or would a group of people wanted him in because George is famous? ...this.

[wolfier]

So George's former profession was not a reporter, a detective, a lawyer, jury, judge (since Joel's first murder was technically an unsolved case), not something illegal and he did not take part in it. However, his profession had something to do with it, which gave him the knowledge of the murder(?)

Was George a doctor? a coroner? Did George know Joel before his first murder? After? Or did they become friends in the process?

[android18]

So George's former profession was not a reporter, a detective, a lawyer, jury, judge (since Joel's first murder was technically an unsolved case), not something illegal and he did not take part in it. However, his profession had something to do with it, which gave him the knowledge of the murder(?) Correct

Was George a doctor? No, but OTRT a coroner? No Did George know Joel before his first murder? After? This Or did they become friends in the process? If you mean in the immediate fallout of the murder, then also yes

[wolfier]

Wrapping my head around how a person can knowingly make friends with a murderer...

Had Joel not known that George knew about the murder until he read the book? If so, did George intentionally hide the fact that he knew? And then secretly based his character on Joel? Did Joel treat George as a friend but not vice-versa?

Was the first person who got murdered, an enemy of George? Was George relevantly saved because of the first murder? Did George immediately benefit from it (i.e. other than the result of writing the novel)?

[android18]

Wrapping my head around how a person can knowingly make friends with a murderer... It'll make a whole lot more sense once George's job is established...

Had Joel not known that George knew about the murder until he read the book? No If so, did George intentionally hide the fact that he knew? Absolutely not... And then secretly based his character on Joel? Did Joel treat George as a friend but not vice-versa? No

Was the first person who got murdered, an enemy of George? No Was George relevantly saved because of the first murder? No Did George immediately benefit from it (i.e. other than the result of writing the novel)? There were ways in which George benefitted, yes, including gaining a friend in Joel.

[wolfier]

was George a psychiatrist? Joel's? A priest sitting in a confession booth?

[android18]

was George a psychiatrist? Close enough, he was a psychologist/therapist Joel's? Yes! A priest sitting in a confession booth?

[wolfier]

OK it all makes sense...

Is Joel's killer upset that Joel himself has not contacted AIDS?

I love story puzzles and enjoy trying to solve it with the least number of questions.

[trebor]

Is it relevant whether J or Dan had been promiscuous while in their relationship? If so, were both of them? Was J? Was Dan? Was Diane upset that Joel had been unfaithful to her brother? And given him AIDS?

[android18]

wolfier

OK it all makes sense...

Is Joel's killer upset that Joel himself has not contacted AIDS? No

I love story puzzles and enjoy trying to solve it with the least number of questions. I'm glad you're liking it, it's a confusing one for me also because of how many things there are going on and trying not to miss out any details!

trebor

Is it relevant whether J or Dan had been promiscuous while in their relationship? No If so, were both of them? Was J? Was Dan? Was Diane upset that Joel had been unfaithful to her brother? And given him AIDS? No to both, it's a lot simpler than that...

[wolfier]

Is Diane upset that Joel abandoned Dan upon learning about Dan's HIV? Or is she upset that Joel "introduced" the lifestyle to Dan and that's how Dan contracted AIDS?

[android18]

Is Diane upset that Joel abandoned Dan upon learning about Dan's HIV? Or is she upset that Joel "introduced" the lifestyle to Dan Yesish to this and that's how Dan contracted AIDS?

[trebor]

I don’t believe people within the LGBTQ community refer to their orientation/gender identity as a lifestyle, typically. Is Joel and Dan being a gay couple the “lifestyle” we’re talking about here? Or is it something that’s a chosen lifestyle, like, say, using drugs or being a writer? Is Diane upset that Dan wasn’t straight? Does she blame Joel for Dan contracting AIDS?

We haven’t established the motive for Joel’s their murder, correct? Does he want people to think he’s straight? Did he kill someone who was going to put him? Someone who was going to make it known that he or Dan had AIDS? Was this first murder a murder for professional gain? For personal gain?

Was Elliot acquainted with Joel’s first murder victim? And I thought I’d posted some questions that I now don’t see a couple days ago, but forgive me if I’m blind, as this was one of them: time period relevant? Does this occur during the AIDS crisis of the 80s?

[wolfier]

when I saw "introduction to a lifestyle" what went in my mind were things like needle sharing, partner swapping, etc. instead of just LGBT. Then again what exactly it is may not be relevant(?)

[trebor]

Wolfier, that’s what I was thinking too, but then when I saw it didn’t matter if they were promiscuous or monogamous or whatever I was confused.

[android18]

trebor

I don’t believe people within the LGBTQ community refer to their orientation/gender identity as a lifestyle, typically.Hence the inverted commas around that word. Used it for a lack of a better term to demonstrate that they shared the same sexuality, without giving it away. Is Joel and Dan being a gay couple the “lifestyle” we’re talking about here? Yes Or is it something that’s a chosen lifestyle, like, say, using drugs or being a writer? Is Diane upset that Dan wasn’t straight? This is basically it... Does she blame Joel for Dan contracting AIDS? ...and it's possible that she did blame Joel for Dan's death.

We haven’t established the motive for Joel’s their murder, correct? I'm assuming that you mean his first murder... Does he want people to think he’s straight? Did he kill someone who was going to put him? Someone who was going to make it known that he or Dan had AIDS? No to these Was this first murder a murder for professional gain? For personal gain? This, but DOYD of 'gain'

Was Elliot acquainted with Joel’s first murder victim? No And I thought I’d posted some questions that I now don’t see a couple days ago, but forgive me if I’m blind, as this was one of them: I don't recall these questions being asked previously. time period relevant? Not specifically, but it is relevant that the events of the puzzle are 'spread out' over the years... Does this occur during the AIDS crisis of the 80s? When Dan gets AIDS, presumably

wolfier

when I saw "introduction to a lifestyle" what went in my mind were things like needle sharing, partner swapping, etc. instead of just LGBT. Yep, hence the inverted commas. Then again what exactly it is may not be relevant(?)


trebor

Wolfier, that’s what I was thinking too, but then when I saw it didn’t matter if they were promiscuous or monogamous or whatever I was confused. Yeah I understand why it may have seemed misleading, but at that moment I couldn't think of a better word without giving it away. I apologise if I've caused offence by using that term, but as I've explained, I felt I had a limited amount of words I could use to give the hint but not give it away.

[wolfier]

that's ok I am not offended at all but there might be some who are. is it relevant to the puzzle exactly what the "lifestyle" is beyond the fact that it carries a higher HIV risk?

[android18]

that's ok I am not offended at all but there might be some who are. is it relevant to the puzzle exactly what the "lifestyle" is beyond the fact that it carries a higher HIV risk? Yesish actually. It's relevant how Joel and Dan met

I think I'm gonna do a recap because it seems to be getting a bit confused (mostly on my part!)

RECAP

Joel commits a murder and receives a psychologist called George to effectively rehabilitate him. The pair strike up a great friendship over the years and around the same time Joel enters into a relationship with Dan, who later succumbs to the complications of HIV. George then betrays Joel by exploiting his life events to write a book and profit from it, which makes Joel hate George. Years later, Joel is the chairman of a writer's club and one of the members (not relevant) suggests that George, now a famous author, would be a good special guest for an upcoming club meeting. Joel reluctantly agrees after the other club members all agree that George should be invited. Immediately after the meeting, George tries to make amends with Joel through a drink, but Joel spikes his wine and George dies a few days later at his home. Whilst Joel and George are drinking, Diane, a fellow club member and Dan's sister, waits outside Joel's house, hoping to ask him about her long deceased brother. When she re-enters Joel's house later on, she is shocked to discover that Joel and Dan were lovers and possibly blames Joel for his death, so she suddenly kills Joel in anger. During the investigation of the deaths, Elliott, the detective in charge of the case, reads the book that George wrote and solves the case. He does this due to an as yet unsolved part of the puzzle.

What is left to solve is:

1) The details surrounding Joel's first murder
2) How Joel and Dan met, because this is relevant to figure out...
3)...how Diane knew that Joel and Dan knew one another and therefore entered Joel's home to ask him about Dan
4) What occurred at Joel's home resulting in Diane finding out about Joel and Dan
5) How Elliott solved the case

Sorry for the long recap, I've tried to make it as detailed as possible. Most of the parts are there now, it's just a few more details left to go.

[wwhere]

Did Joel end in jail for that first murder? Was that murder premeditated?
Were Dan and Joel cellmates?
Did Diane find any letters from Dan to Joel?
The book Elliot was reading, was it Joel's copy? George's copy? Diane's copy? Someone else's copy? Just a new one from a shop? Did it have anything else in it? a message?

[android18]

Did Joel end in jail for that first murder? No Was that murder premeditated? Yes
Were Dan and Joel cellmates? No, interesting idea though
Did Diane find any letters from Dan to Joel? No, but this is vaguely OTRT
The book Elliot was reading, was it Joel's copy? George's copy? Diane's copy? Someone else's copy? This Just a new one from a shop? Could also be this, irrelevant where he got it from Did it have anything else in it? a message? No to both

[wolfier]

Did Diane find it out by photographs in Joel's place? Did she think they were friends before she found out? Did Joel and Dan meet through a common hobby? about books? e.g. a book club
Was Elliott also part of the party or a fan of Joel? Did he rely on any object or person other than the book to solve the case?

[android18]

Did Diane find it out by photographs in Joel's place? That they were lovers? No Did she think they were friends before she found out? She knew that they knew each other, yes, which is why she wanted to find out more info from Joel at his house Did Joel and Dan meet through a common hobby? about books? e.g. a book club Not a hobby but...
Was Elliott also part of the party or a fan of Joel? No to both Did he rely on any object YES or person And yes other than the book to solve the case?

[wwhere]

Was Joel judged by the murder? Was he declared guilty of murder? was he declared innocent? non-guilty?
If he wasn't judged, then did he search George's help as therapist by himself? Did he commit the murder for vengeance? money? love? jealously? hate? to save someone? was he trying to do some good? is it important how he committed that murder? was dan involved in the murder somehow? was he related to the motive of the murder?

[android18]

Was Joel judged by the murder? Was he declared guilty of murder? was he declared innocent? non-guilty? No to all
If he wasn't judged, then did he search George's help as therapist by himself? Yes! Did he commit the murder for vengeance? This money? love? jealously? hate? Some of this to save someone? Mostly this was he trying to do some good? Also this is it important how he committed that murder? Exact method is irrelevant was dan involved in the murder somehow? was he related to the motive of the murder? No to both

[trebor]

Did Joel commit an ethical murder, with his first murder? Would some people, if they learned about it, think it was a good thing? Was it impossible to save the person(s) he was trying to save without committing a murder? Was the person he was saving himself? His offspring? His partner? Another family member? A friend? Another writer? Was he saving a hypothetical person?

Did Joel and Dan meet at a bathhouse? A gay bar? A swingers event? An orgy? At a Pride event? A book signing? A Murderer’s Anonymous meeting?

[android18]

Did Joel commit an ethical murder, with his first murder? No but some might disagree Would some people, if they learned about it, think it was a good thing? Yes Was it impossible to save the person(s) he was trying to save without committing a murder? Yes Was the person he was saving himself? Yes His offspring? His partner? Another family member? A friend? Another writer? Was he saving a hypothetical person?

Did Joel and Dan meet at a bathhouse? A gay bar? A swingers event? An orgy? At a Pride event? A book signing? A Murderer’s Anonymous meeting? No to all

[wwhere]

Did Joel meet Dan because of the murder, in any way?
About that first murder, did Joel murder someone who was blackmailing him?

(All this sounds to me very much like a Death in Paradise plot, but I don't want to go to episode listings to refresh my memory and check if that is, indeed, its origin)

[android18]

Did Joel meet Dan because of the murder, in any way? Yesish
About that first murder, did Joel murder someone who was blackmailing him? No

(All this sounds to me very much like a Death in Paradise plot, but I don't want to go to episode listings to refresh my memory and check if that is, indeed, its origin) It isn't, but you're almost right!

[wolfier]

Was Dan another client of George the psychologist?

[trebor]

Was his first murder actually self-defence? Was Joel in immediate physical danger at the time he committed the murder? Had he learned of a murder plot against him? Did he have reason to suspect that his life would be in danger? If so, within minutes? Hours? Days? Years? Is the method by which Joel would have died relevant? Is the method in which he killed this person relevant? Is their identity relevant? Their profession?

Have we established whether Dan’s profession matters? If not, does it? Was he involved in some aspect of Joel’s first murder? Did Dan and George know each other? Did Joel meet Dan through George?

The relevant item that helped Elliot figure out the crime: the first murder weapon? The wine glass George drank from? Something Diane provided him with? Something Joel? George? Dan? gave him? Something present at Joel’s house the night George was murdered?

[android18]

wolfier

Was Dan another client of George the psychologist? No


trebor

Was his first murder actually self-defence? Yope Was Joel in immediate physical danger at the time he committed the murder? Probably not immediate Had he learned of a murder plot against him? No Did he have reason to suspect that his life would be in danger? Yope If so, within minutes? Hours? Days? Years? Could be any Is the method by which Joel would have died relevant? Not really Is the method in which he killed this person relevant? Not really Is their identity relevant? Not sure what you mean by this Their profession? No

Have we established whether Dan’s profession matters? Not yet If not, does it? Yes Was he involved in some aspect of Joel’s first murder? No Did Dan and George know each other? To a degree Did Joel meet Dan through George? No

The relevant item that helped Elliot figure out the crime: the first murder weapon? The wine glass George drank from? Something Diane provided him with? This, no to rest Something Joel? George? Dan? gave him? Something present at Joel’s house the night George was murdered?

[TDGperson]

Was Dan the person that Joel saved?

[android18]

Was Dan the person that Joel saved? No, Joel saved himself

[wolfier]

1) The details surrounding Joel's first murder
So Joel killed and saved himself but only Yopishly self-defence...is it relevant to the rest of the puzzle?

2) How Joel and Dan met, because this is relevant to figure out...
Dan and George sort of knows each other, so perhaps Joel and Dan met at George's clinic?

3)...how Diane knew that Joel and Dan knew one another and therefore entered Joel's home to ask him about Dan
Does Dan have a vast collection of Joel's manuscripts? Unpublished work?

4) What occurred at Joel's home resulting in Diane finding out about Joel and Dan
Did she find some kind of memento between Joel and Dan?

5) How Elliott solved the case
If it's something from Diane, does it mean Diane was the reporter of her own murder? Did she voluntarily gave that something to Elliott, or is it something Elliott discovered at Joel's house?

[android18]

1) The details surrounding Joel's first murder
So Joel killed and saved himself but only Yopishly self-defence...is it relevant to the rest of the puzzle? Not exactly. but it makes it clear why Joel wasn't punished for the murder and why he hates George after he exploits his life story.

2) How Joel and Dan met, because this is relevant to figure out...
Dan and George sort of knows each other, so perhaps Joel and Dan met at George's clinic? No and George knows Dan due to his friendship with Joel

3)...how Diane knew that Joel and Dan knew one another and therefore entered Joel's home to ask him about Dan
Does Dan have a vast collection of Joel's manuscripts? Unpublished work? No, but again this is very vaguely OTRT

4) What occurred at Joel's home resulting in Diane finding out about Joel and Dan
Did she find some kind of memento between Joel and Dan? No

5) How Elliott solved the case
If it's something from Diane, does it mean Diane was the reporter of her own murder? No Did she voluntarily gave that something to Elliott, or is it something Elliott discovered at Joel's house? No, but very OTRT

[wolfier]

Had Joel been suffering from a psychological order before the first murder?
Did Joel and Dan know each other through Diane? Was Joel using Dan's ideas in his writings? (which Dan also shared with Diane?) . Did Joel dedicate a book to Dan? Did Dan leave something relevant in Joel's house that Diane discovered? Wedding bands relevant?

[trebor]

Did Diane find Joel's diary? Or perhaps a day-to-day account of his life? As advised by George? Did she intentionally provide Elliott with what she found? Uh, did she contract an STI at Joel's house? Did she find something that maybe didn't necessarily link Joel and Dan as a couple but did tell her that Joel was gay, had AIDS, etc., and she put two and two together? Has Joel ever relevantly had AIDS?

Had Joel been found not guilty by reason of insanity? Or been found unfit to stand trial? Relevant whether or not he had spent time in a hospital or institution for whatever he was seeing George for? Is the particular ailment relevant?

[android18]

wolfier

Had Joel been suffering from a psychological order before the first murder? Yes, explore
Did Joel and Dan know each other through Diane? Was Joel using Dan's ideas in his writings? (which Dan also shared with Diane?) . Did Joel dedicate a book to Dan? Did Dan leave something relevant in Joel's house that Diane discovered? Wedding bands relevant? No to all

trebor

Did Diane find Joel's diary? Or perhaps a day-to-day account of his life? As advised by George? No to these Did she intentionally provide Elliott with what she found? Yes, but was reluctant to Uh, did she contract an STI at Joel's house? No Did she find something that maybe didn't necessarily link Joel and Dan as a couple Yes, explore... but did tell her that Joel was gay, had AIDS, etc., and she put two and two together? ...but not this Has Joel ever relevantly had AIDS? No

Had Joel been found not guilty by reason of insanity? Or been found unfit to stand trial? No to both Relevant whether or not he had spent time in a hospital or institution for whatever he was seeing George for? No Is the particular ailment relevant? Yes, but 'ailment' would be misleading, explore

[wolfier]

was Joel suffering from identity crisis? one of sexual orientation? has Joel ever attempted or thought about attempting suicide? multiple personality relevant? amnesia? sleep deprivation?

[android18]

was Joel suffering from identity crisis? one of sexual orientation? has Joel ever attempted or thought about attempting suicide? This is possible, no to rest multiple personality relevant? amnesia? sleep deprivation?

[wolfier]

So Joel suffered from depression? Did it happen before or after he met Dan?

[trebor]

Was Dan a medical worker? Did he meet Joel while caring for him? While attempting to administer to Joel’s first murder victim? Was Dan a cop? Otherwise involved in the legal profession? Did he relevantly work within the LGBTQ community? (At a gay bar, as part of an LGBTQ organisation, with Pride, etc.?) Did he work in suicide prevention? Did he work in the criminal justice system? Is Joel’s age at the time of his first murder relevant?

[trebor]

Is the thing that Diane gave Elliott mentioned in the book? Is it relevant why she was reluctant to give it to him? If yes, because it would make known the fact that Dan was gay? Because it would implicate her in Joel’s murder?

[android18]

Would just like to say that I'm very sorry for my lack of replying as of late, just been very busy with university stuff, holiday, etc.

wofier

So Joel suffered from depression? Yes, but there's something else more relevant Did it happen before or after he met Dan? Before

trebor

Was Dan a medical worker? Did he meet Joel while caring for him? While attempting to administer to Joel’s first murder victim? Was Dan a cop? Otherwise involved in the legal profession? Did he relevantly work within the LGBTQ community? (At a gay bar, as part of an LGBTQ organisation, with Pride, etc.?) Did he work in suicide prevention? Did he work in the criminal justice system? No to all Is Joel’s age at the time of his first murder relevant? Yes

Is the thing that Diane gave Elliott mentioned in the book? Yes Is it relevant why she was reluctant to give it to him? Yes If yes, because it would make known the fact that Dan was gay? Because it would implicate her in Joel’s murder? This

[trebor]

Did Diane give Elliott the book itself? Did she write something on one of the pages?

Had Joel not been sentenced for his first murder due to his being a young offender?

Have we established the method of Joel’s murder, the one in which he dies (as opposed to the ones he’s committed)? If not, was it from being shot? Blunt force trauma? Being stabbed? Was he murdered with a very specific item that is mentioned in the book?

Is Diane in the book at all?

[android18]

Did Diane give Elliott the book itself? Did she write something on one of the pages? No to both

Had Joel not been sentenced for his first murder due to his being a young offender? No, but explore

Have we established the method of Joel’s murder, the one in which he dies (as opposed to the ones he’s committed)? Yes... If not, was it from being shot? Blunt force trauma? ...was this Being stabbed? Was he murdered with a very specific item that is mentioned in the book? No

Is Diane in the book at all? No

[wolfier]

did Joel's first victim in any way contributed to Joel's depression or suicidal thoughts while living? after getting killed?

[android18]

did Joel's first victim in any way contributed to Joel's depression or suicidal thoughts while living? YES after getting killed?

[wolfier]

Was Joel's first victim related to him? e.g. his immediate family? That he was psychologically or physically abused to the point depression developed?

[android18]

Was Joel's first victim related to him? e.g. his immediate family? Yes! Father That he was psychologically or physically abused to the point depression developed? Yes!

[trebor]

The thing that Diane used as the murder weapon, is that what she gave Elliott? Is it also the thing she found in the house that gave her the missing information about Dan? If yes to the above, is it a common household item? Would one usually find it in the kitchen? Garage? Bathroom? Bedroom? Living room? Entryway? Dining area (if separate from the kitchen)? Laundry room? Same questions for as many other objects as are relevant.

Was Elliott at the house the night of Joel’s murder?

[wolfier]

Was Joel's first victim related to him? e.g. his immediate family? Yes! Father That he was psychologically or physically abused to the point depression developed? Yes!

Do these discoveries have anything to do with resolving the rest of the unknowns?

[trebor]

Really hoping this one picks up again soon...

[Balin]

Can you recap what's been learned so far?

[android18]

Really sorry I've been away for so long, just been really busy with uni, but here we go, let's finally get rid of this one.


trebor


The thing that Diane used as the murder weapon, is that what she gave Elliott? [b]No Is it also the thing she found in the house that gave her the missing information about Dan? No If yes to the above, is it a common household item? Would one usually find it in the kitchen? Garage? Bathroom? Bedroom? It is a small desktop statue. Explore the fact it was in his bedroom. Living room? Entryway? Dining area (if separate from the kitchen)? Laundry room? Same questions for as many other objects as are relevant.

Was Elliott at the house the night of Joel’s murder? No[/b]

wolfier

Do these discoveries have anything to do with resolving the rest of the unknowns? Not really, the is one last part but you're basically there with this bit: Joel ran away from home and found referred to George; as he was only a child, George helps Joel out with his mental issues.

Balin

Gonna build on from the last recap:

RECAP

Joel is sexually abused by his father, so shoots him and runs away from home. The young child finds George, a psychologist. The pair strike up a great friendship over the years and later Joel meets Dan through his profession. They enter into a relationship, but Dan later succumbs to the complications of HIV. George then betrays Joel by exploiting his life events to write a book and profit from it, which makes Joel hate George. Years later, Joel is the chairman of a writer's club and one of the members (not relevant) suggests that George, now a famous author, would be a good special guest for an upcoming club meeting. Joel reluctantly agrees after the other club members all agree that George should be invited. Immediately after the meeting, George tries to make amends with Joel through a drink, but Joel spikes his wine and George dies a few days later at his home. Whilst Joel and George are drinking, Diane, a fellow club member and Dan's sister, waits outside Joel's house, hoping to ask him about her long deceased brother. When she re-enters Joel's house later on, she is shocked to discover that Joel and Dan were lovers and possibly blames Joel for his death. She suddenly kills Joel in anger, with a blunt object in his bedroom. During the investigation of the deaths, Elliott, the detective in charge of the case, reads the book that George wrote and solves the case. He does this with an object that Diane provides him with, which she is reluctant to give him, due to the (correct) fear that it will incriminate her.

What is left to solve is:

1) How Joel and Dan met (remember that their profession is relevant), because this is relevant to figure out...
2)...how Diane knew that Joel and Dan knew one another and therefore knew to enter Joel's home to ask him about Dan
3) What occurred at Joel's home resulting in Diane finding out about Joel and Dan HINT: The fact that they were in Joel's bedroom at the time is somewhat relevant.
4) What the object is that Diane gave to Elliot and how it helped him solve the case.

[Balin]

Was Diane hoping to enter into a sexual relationship with Joel? Vice versa?
Was the object given to Elliot sexual in nature?

[wolfier]

Was Dan also a writer? Did Diane relate the two because she knew that Joel and Dan co-authored something? Went to the same writing school? Same writer's guild? Did she discover a fragment of *something* relevant, that used to be whole but divided in halves, one part went to Joel and the other went to Dan? (e.g. a torn photograph) If so, did Elliott ask Diane for the "other half" of the it in Dan's possession till he died? Did George write about this object in his book (if a photograph, include it in his book?)

[android18]

Balin

Was Diane hoping to enter into a sexual relationship with Joel? Vice versa?
Was the object given to Elliot sexual in nature? No to all


wolfier

Was Dan also a writer? No Did Diane relate the two because she knew that Joel and Dan co-authored something? Went to the same writing school? Same writer's guild? So no to these Did she discover a fragment of *something* relevant, that used to be whole but divided in halves, one part went to Joel and the other went to Dan? (e.g. a torn photograph) No, but one element of this is OTRT If so, did Elliott ask Diane for the "other half" of the it in Dan's possession till he died? Did George write about this object in his book (if a photograph, include it in his book?) No to these

[wolfier]

Did Dan and Joel know each other since childhood, and perhaps went to the same school?
Did Joel have a profession too, prior to being a writer?
The element that's OTRT: something divided? a photograph?

[android18]

Did Dan and Joel know each other since childhood No..., and perhaps went to the same school? ...but OTRT
Did Joel have a profession too, prior to being a writer? YES
The element that's OTRT: something divided? a photograph? This

[wolfier]

Did Dan and Joel know each other since childhood No..., and perhaps went to the same school? ...but OTRT
Did Joel have a profession too, prior to being a writer? YES
The element that's OTRT: something divided? a photograph? This

Were Joel and Dan in the photo? With other people in the same "organisation"? Was the exact profession of Joel before becoming a writer relevant? Was Dan in that same profession? A "client" or a customer to that profession?

[trebor]

Did Dan and Joel meet while they were in high school? University? After? Was there an age gap between them? Did they meet through a common interest? Had Dan been through a similar abusive experience to Joel's? Prior to Joel becoming a writer, did Dan and Joel have related professions? Did they share a workplace? Was Joel's profession illegal? Was Dan's? Is Diane's profession or former profession relevant?

Are either of their professions (other than writer) related to:

Artistic / musical / writer?
Banking / financial / real estate?
Clerical / Administrative?
Computer related / Hardware?
Construction / Craftsman?
Criminal / Questionable Repute?
Education / Academic Research?
Entertainment / Media?
Environmental / Outdoors / Nature?
Executive / Management?
Hospitality / Travel?
Legal Services?
Manufacturing / Distributions?
Medical / Health Services?
Politics / Government / Military?
Sales / Marketing?
Technical / Science / Engineering?
Teaching / Child care?
Transportation?
Food Service?

Did Diane murder Joel with an item commonly found in a bedroom? With part of a bed? A piece of furniture? An extremely heavy book?

[android18]

wolfier

Were Joel and Dan in the photo? Yes With other people in the same "organisation"? Potentially Was the exact profession of Joel before becoming a writer relevant? Yes Was Dan in that same profession? This A "client" or a customer to that profession?

trebor

Did Dan and Joel meet while they were in high school? University? After? This Was there an age gap between them? Not relevantly Did they meet through a common interest? Yes, as they met through having the same occupation Had Dan been through a similar abusive experience to Joel's? Not relevantly Prior to Joel becoming a writer, did Dan and Joel have related professions? Very much so Did they share a workplace? Yes Was Joel's profession illegal? Was Dan's? No to both Is Diane's profession or former profession relevant? No

Are either of their professions (other than writer) related to:

Artistic / musical / writer?
Banking / financial / real estate?
Clerical / Administrative?
Computer related / Hardware?
Construction / Craftsman?
Criminal / Questionable Repute?
Education / Academic Research?
Entertainment / Media?
Environmental / Outdoors / Nature?
Executive / Management?
Hospitality / Travel?
Legal Services?
Manufacturing / Distributions?
Medical / Health Services?
Politics / Government / Military? This
Sales / Marketing?
Technical / Science / Engineering?
Teaching / Child care?
Transportation?
Food Service?

Did Diane murder Joel with an item commonly found in a bedroom? With part of a bed? A piece of furniture? An extremely heavy book? Irrelevant the exact weapon was, assume it was just a heavy object she found in Joel's bedroom.

[trebor]

Were J & D in the army? Navy? Air Force? Had they fought together overseas? Is “don’t ask, don’t tell” relevant?

[android18]

Were J & D in the army? Yes! Navy? Air Force? These could also work however Had they fought together overseas? Yes! Is “don’t ask, don’t tell” relevant? No, but their relationship was a secret to most

[trebor]

Did Diane find something related to J’s military career? To Dan’s? Had she read J’s book, the one that Elliott read?

[android18]

Did Diane find something related to J’s military career? To Dan’s? Yes to both Had she read J’s book, the one that Elliott read? Presumably yes as she was a member of the writers' club, but it's irrelevant

[trebor]

Is the photograph the item Diane gave to Elliott? Was Diane seeing the photo the event that confirmed J & D’s relationship to her? (Sorry if I’m doubling back on questions; I have re-read this thread several times, but sometimes I still forget things.)

[android18]

Is the photograph the item Diane gave to Elliott? Yes! Explore this Was Diane seeing the photo the event that confirmed J & D’s relationship to her? No (Sorry if I’m doubling back on questions; I have re-read this thread several times, but sometimes I still forget things.) Ha ha, so am I with this puzzle

[trebor]

Was Dan mentioned by name in the book? Was he given a fake name? Was Elliott able to deduce that this person in the book was Dan based on the photograph? Was Diane? Was the photograph also in the book?

If they had shared another workplace (say a less dangerous one), would this whole scenario still have been possible? Is it relevant whether hey killed anyone overseas? Whether one of them contracted a communicable disease? Family relations at home while they were deployed relevant? Is his military time the primary focus of Joel’s book?

[android18]

Was Dan mentioned by name in the book? No Was he given a fake name? A character was heavily based upon him, so yes Was Elliott able to deduce that this person in the book was Dan based on the photograph? Partially, explore Was Diane? No Was the photograph also in the book? No

If they had shared another workplace (say a less dangerous one), would this whole scenario still have been possible? Probably Is it relevant whether hey killed anyone overseas? No Whether one of them contracted a communicable disease? No, apart from that Dan dies from one Family relations at home while they were deployed relevant? No Is his military time the primary focus of Joel’s book? Joel's backstory and his subsequent relationship with Dan is, so partly

[Hobbsicle]

Does poisoning occur in the book? Or does the poison hail from the country they were deployed to?

Does she find additional pictures of them that give away their relationship? Letters? Would an average person have realized their relationship based on what she had seen? Or did it require certain knowledge?

[android18]

Does poisoning occur in the book? No Or does the poison hail from the country they were deployed to? No/irrelevant

Does she find additional pictures of them that give away their relationship? Letters? No to these Would an average person have realized their relationship based on what she had seen? No because... Or did it require certain knowledge? ...they would have to know that Joel and Dan were close, as Diane did

[trebor]

Is it relevant how Diane knew before that Joel and Dan were close? Is it relevant if Dan died while deployed? Or while still in the military?

[android18]

Is it relevant how Diane knew before that Joel and Dan were close? Yes, the photograph along with the as yet unsolved object Is it relevant if Dan died while deployed? Or while still in the military? No to both

[trebor]

Can we have a recap please?

I thought the only relevant object other than the photo was the one Diane murdered Joel with. Is there a third relevant object? If so, did she give it to Elliott as well? Does it relate to the military? Is it something that specifically belonged to Dan? To Joel? To both of them? Is it a romantic, couple-y sort of a thing? Is it sexual in nature?

Does George's book deal only with Joel's abuse at the hands of his father? Does it extend into Joel's military career? Into his relationship with Dan? Is there a link between whatever fictional names George uses in the book and one or more of the objects Diane discovers?

[android18]

Can we have a recap please? All that's left to solve is what the object Diane gave to Elliott is and how Diane discovered Joel's and Dan's relationship.

I thought the only relevant object other than the photo This is the relevant object, but there's more to it than just that was the one Diane murdered Joel with. This isn't relevant; just needs to be a blunt object Is there a third relevant object? No If so, did she give it to Elliott as well? Does it relate to the military? Is it something that specifically belonged to Dan? To Joel? To both of them? Is it a romantic, couple-y sort of a thing? Is it sexual in nature?

Does George's book deal only with Joel's abuse at the hands of his father? Does it extend into Joel's military career? Into his relationship with Dan? Is there a link between whatever fictional names George uses in the book and one or more of the objects Diane discovers? The book covers Joel's life, but this is not how Diane discovers their relationship.

[trebor]

Is there something relevant in the photo? Someone (other than Joel and Dan)? Is it a printed photo? Is the frame relevant? Is the photo printed on something unusual? Is it on a book jacket? Is it on a digital device?

[android18]

Is there something relevant in the photo? Not apart from Joel and Dan together in military uniform Someone (other than Joel and Dan)? So no Is it a printed photo? Yes Is the frame relevant? No, FA, explore Is the photo printed on something unusual? No Is it on a book jacket? Is it on a digital device? No to both

[trebor]

Is the photo in an album? Is it part of a collage? Is it a normal, photo-sized photo? Is it in something relevant? (Being used as a bookmark, for example.)

[android18]

Is the photo in an album? Is it part of a collage? No to both Is it a normal, photo-sized photo? Yes Is it in something relevant? (Being used as a bookmark, for example.) No

[trebor]

Did Diane find the photograph on her own? Was it shown to her by someone else? If so, by Joel? Is it relevant in which room Diane saw the photo? Was it the bedroom? Does it matter what part of the room she saw it in, whatever room it was?

[android18]

Did Diane find the photograph on her own? Most likely Was it shown to her by someone else? If so, by Joel? Is it relevant in which room Diane saw the photo? Was it the bedroom? Irrelevant, possible FA Does it matter what part of the room she saw it in, whatever room it was? No

Just to clear up any possible confusion, Diane has been in possession of the photograph long before the events of this puzzle, so was not found in Joel's home, in case that's what you were thinking.

[trebor]

So the relevant object is the photo, and there is nothing relevant about the photo apart from J & D in military uniform, but there is more to the photo than what had been established. Did Diane find Dan’s uniform in Joel’s closet and recognize it from the picture? Is a detail of Dan’s uniform or appearance relevantly mentioned in the book? Tattoos/piercings relevant? Is it relevant what pose either Joel or Dan were striking in the photo?

[android18]

So the relevant object is the photo Yes, but..., and there is nothing relevant about the photo apart from J & D in military uniform Correct, but there is more to the photo than what had been established. Yesish... Did Diane find Dan’s uniform in Joel’s closet and recognize it from the picture? No Is a detail of Dan’s uniform or appearance relevantly mentioned in the book? No Tattoos/piercings relevant? No Is it relevant what pose either Joel or Dan were striking in the photo? No

[trebor]

I'm posting this question before I comb over the previous posts to suss out clues and try to re-frame my mind. But I want to let you know I'm still working on this.

Is Dan's or Joel's pose in the photo relevant? Is the identity of someone else in the photo relevant? Does someone else relevantly have a copy of the photo? Has someone other than Diane, Joel, or Dan relevantly seen the photo?

[trebor]

Hoping we can get this one going again.