[Balin] Please choose an Egyptian hieroglyph

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[Balin] Please choose an Egyptian hieroglyph

Postby Balin » Thu May 14, 2020 12:53 am

David selects four random items from a limited supply. No matter which items he picks, Jon is able to tell him a connection between the four. How does he do it?
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Re: [Balin] Please choose an Egyptian hieroglyph

Postby GalFisk » Thu May 14, 2020 2:30 am

Are they all easily connected? Is it a magic trick? Have the limited supply been tailored in order to make Jon's task easy? Does Jon possess above average skill or knowledge for making such connections?
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Re: [Balin] Please choose an Egyptian hieroglyph

Postby WiZ » Thu May 14, 2020 9:00 pm

Is this a one-off incident? Does this happen again with other people? If so, does D or J remain in the same role?

Does this happen as part of David or Jon's work? Is this part of any formal education? Is this a form of entertainment? Do they have an audience?

Is the type of items in the supply relevant? Is D or J able to make use of the information (i.e. the connection)? After the connection is established, do either of them put the items to use?
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Re: [Balin] Please choose an Egyptian hieroglyph

Postby gregoryuconn » Fri May 15, 2020 1:53 am

Is he accurately telling him of a connection between the four? Or is he just making up "connections" as he goes along?

WAG: Are there only four items, so no matter which he picks, it's those four?
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Re: [Balin] Please choose an Egyptian hieroglyph

Postby Earnest » Fri May 15, 2020 8:11 am

Are the items the same? Are they pieces of paper? Do they change in shape?
Cards relevant? Is Jon fortune-teller? Could anyone provide a connection?
jigsaw puzzle pieces relevant?
Is the connection: physical? "Mental"? To someone? connection of words? Puns?

from a limited supply --> 4? 5? more than 10? more than 50 items?
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Re: [Balin] Please choose an Egyptian hieroglyph

Postby Balin » Sat May 16, 2020 2:16 am

Are they all easily connected? Sometimes Is it a magic trick? (sigh) Yes... Have the limited supply been tailored in order to make Jon's task easy? No Does Jon possess above average skill or knowledge for making such connections? Yes

Is this a one-off incident? No Does this happen again with other people? Yes If so, does D or J remain in the same role? Yes, Jon

Does this happen as part of David or Jon's work? Yes, Jon's Is this part of any formal education? No Is this a form of entertainment? Yes Do they have an audience? Yes

Is the type of items in the supply relevant? Yes Is D or J able to make use of the information (i.e. the connection)? Yes, Jon After the connection is established, do either of them put the items to use? Establishing the connection, in this case, is the use of the items

Is he accurately telling him of a connection between the four? Or is he just making up "connections" as he goes along? This

WAG: Are there only four items, so no matter which he picks, it's those four? No

Are the items the same? Same type of item, not identical items Are they pieces of paper? See below Do they change in shape? No
Cards relevant? (double sigh) Yes...[/b] Is Jon fortune-teller? No Could anyone provide a connection? Yes
jigsaw puzzle pieces relevant? No
Is the connection: physical? "Mental"? This, I suppose To someone? connection of words? Puns? None of these

from a limited supply --> 4? 5? more than 10? more than 50 items? This

In just one set of questions, you all have come up with enough information, I believe, to hop to the solution soon. Should've made this an OOATP....
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Re: [Balin] Please choose an Egyptian hieroglyph

Postby GalFisk » Sat May 16, 2020 4:15 am

Are any of the choices forced? Are all cards picked at once? Are any connections mathematical? Has the magician come up with a bunch of connections beforehand, and trick the subject into picking another card in those few circumstances where he doesn't have any?
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Re: [Balin] Please choose an Egyptian hieroglyph

Postby trebor » Sat May 16, 2020 6:59 pm

If anyone could provide a connection, would this work if Jon wasn't a magician? Is it more like a joke? "Pick four cards, any cards, and I'll tell you the connection between them. Got them? Okay. They're all cards." Something like that?

If not, does he do anything to the cards first to make sure David selects certain ones? So that they're all the same suit/number/colour? Is this a normal deck of playing cards? Are any card games relevant?

Nice reference with the title. The intro where of season four, where they switched from Greek Letters to Egyptian hieroglyphs, I thought, was hilarious.
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Re: [Balin] Please choose an Egyptian hieroglyph

Postby Balin » Mon May 18, 2020 6:19 pm

Are any of the choices forced? None of the four are Are all cards picked at once? All four are, Yes Are any connections mathematical? They may be Has the magician come up with a bunch of connections beforehand, and trick the subject into picking another card in those few circumstances where he doesn't have any? No

If anyone could provide a connection, would this work if Jon wasn't a magician? No Is it more like a joke? Not really, No "Pick four cards, any cards, and I'll tell you the connection between them. Got them? Okay. They're all cards." Something like that? Clever, but No

If not, does he do anything to the cards first to make sure David selects certain ones? Not regarding those four cards So that they're all the same suit/number/colour? No Is this a normal deck of playing cards? Yes Are any card games relevant? No

Nice reference with the title. The intro where of season four, where they switched from Greek Letters to Egyptian hieroglyphs, I thought, was hilarious. I only discovered the show last week and spent most evenings blasting through the most recent season. Going to have to check out some earlier ones too.
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Re: [Balin] Please choose an Egyptian hieroglyph

Postby GalFisk » Tue May 19, 2020 6:32 am

You say none of the four are forced choices, and all four are picked at once. Are other cards involved? If so, before? After? Are other cards picked before? After? Are other card choices forced? Are other cards used in the connections?
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Re: [Balin] Please choose an Egyptian hieroglyph

Postby Earnest » Tue May 19, 2020 7:40 am

Are the cards face up? face down? Does J see them face up? face down? If the latter, does he make a connection after having seen them?
Or maybe...is J blindfolded? Is D (e.g. something like D is blindfolded and should choose 4 cards at Radom, but J somehow "directs" his choice)? Does D pick the cards at random? Would it work with only 2 cards? with only 1 card? Does D put the card back in the deck (does he pick them out of a deck? If so does the deck have the same 4 cards? Could he pick two identical cards?)?

Are the connections made in order to guess the cards? Is it relevant whether the cards are figures or numbers? Or maybe regardless, a connection is possible? Is the connection mainly: on the suit? On the value of cards (an arbitrary one? A given one? A conventional one?)? on the fact that the cards are all out of thee deck? On a story told by J related to cards? On their positioning in the deck? Are the cards ordered according to their value?
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Re: [Balin] Please choose an Egyptian hieroglyph

Postby Balin » Wed May 20, 2020 12:50 am

You say none of the four are forced choices, and all four are picked at once. Are other cards involved? Yes If so, before? This After? Are other cards picked before? This After? Are other card choices forced? Yes Are other cards used in the connections? No

Are the cards face up? face down? At some point, both Does J see them face up? face down? Both If the latter, does he make a connection after having seen them? After seeing them face-up
Or maybe...is J blindfolded? No Is D (e.g. something like D is blindfolded and should choose 4 cards at Radom, but J somehow "directs" his choice)? No Does D pick the cards at random? Yes Would it work with only 2 cards? Probably not with only 1 card? Almost certainly not Does D put the card back in the deck No (does he pick them out of a deck? Yes If so does the deck have the same 4 cards? It's a standard 52-card deck Could he pick two identical cards?)? So no

Are the connections made in order to guess the cards? Not the four cards, No Is it relevant whether the cards are figures or numbers? No Or maybe regardless, a connection is possible? Yes Is the connection mainly: on the suit? It can be On the value of cards It can be (an arbitrary one? A given one? A conventional one?)? Not sure what you're asking in the parenthetical on the fact that the cards are all out of thee deck? Not reallyOn a story told by J related to cards? No On their positioning in the deck? No Are the cards ordered according to their value? No
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Re: [Balin] Please choose an Egyptian hieroglyph

Postby GalFisk » Wed May 20, 2020 8:46 am

Are four cards picked before? More? Less? Are the card(s) picked before connected to te four randomly picked cards? Are the cards picked before chosen so that they'll connect to every possible other card? Is it a positive connection (i.e. same color, number, neighbour etc)? Or negative (i.e. not close in any obvious way)? Are poker hands relevant?
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Re: [Balin] Please choose an Egyptian hieroglyph

Postby Earnest » Thu May 21, 2020 10:43 am

Is a number/value associated to the cards? Is the connection made with real world? Between the cards but in a real world scenario (i.e. not on the cards characteristics. For instance if 1 2 3 and 4 are picked up the connection is not that they are consecutive numbers but rather some connection involving real world, like: ok the people in the public sit on the places stand up...)? Is public/audience involved? Had the numbers been above 10, would the connection work?

Talking about other cards face-up and face-down and timing. I will make a list in temporal order, could you please confirm both the order and the listed facts?:

1) other cards are picked face down. 4 cards? More? Less?
2) 4 cards are picked up face down by D.
3) -->?: the 4 cards are put face up? the cards in 1) are put face up first? The cards in 1) and 2) are put face up at the same time? Does D see 1) and 2) before J? Viceversa? Or maybe D see 2) before J but not 1)?

Is the connection made for 1-2-3-4 the same made for Jack - King -1 -2? For 1-2-3- a figure? the same of 1-2-3-another number different from 4?
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Re: [Balin] Please choose an Egyptian hieroglyph

Postby Balin » Fri May 22, 2020 12:10 am

Are four cards picked before? More? Less? Fewer - specifically, one card Are the card(s) picked before connected to te four randomly picked cards? Yes Are the cards picked before chosen so that they'll connect to every possible other card? No Is it a positive connection (i.e. same color, number, neighbour etc)? Or negative (i.e. not close in any obvious way)? Can be either Are poker hands relevant? No

Is a number/value associated to the cards? Yes - generally, the number on the cards Is the connection made with real world? No Between the cards but in a real world scenario (i.e. not on the cards characteristics. For instance if 1 2 3 and 4 are picked up the connection is not that they are consecutive numbers but rather some connection involving real world, like: ok the people in the public sit on the places stand up...)? No Is public/audience involved? No Had the numbers been above 10, would the connection work? Only insofar that there is no card numbered above 10 in a standard deck

Talking about other cards face-up and face-down and timing. I will make a list in temporal order, could you please confirm both the order and the listed facts?:

1) other cards are picked face down. 4 cards? More? Less? One card is picked, by David
2) 4 cards are picked up face down by D. Yes
3) -->?: the 4 cards are put face up? the cards in 1) are put face up first? The cards in 1) and 2) are put face up at the same time? Does D see 1) and 2) before J? Viceversa? Or maybe D see 2) before J but not 1)? In Step 3, Jack turns the 4 cards face up

Is the connection made for 1-2-3-4 the same made for Jack - King -1 -2? For 1-2-3- a figure? the same of 1-2-3-another number different from 4? They'll all be different connections

(Getting closer to the solution now...)
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Re: [Balin] Please choose an Egyptian hieroglyph

Postby GalFisk » Sat May 23, 2020 8:32 am

Is the fifthcard used to make connections if the four can't all be connected? Is a prediction made regarding the fifth card?
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Re: [Balin] Please choose an Egyptian hieroglyph

Postby Balin » Mon May 25, 2020 4:03 am

Is the fifthcard used to make connections if the four can't all be connected? No Is a prediction made regarding the fifth card? Yes
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Re: [Balin] Please choose an Egyptian hieroglyph

Postby Earnest » Wed May 27, 2020 7:52 am

Ok to be sure: relevant that the cards are 5? Is 5 the minimum number in order to "force" a connection? Could the connection be made with 4 cards? With 6?
Can we assume that the cards are shuffled and J does not know the order of the cards in the deck? And that David picks all the 5 cards at random without D touching them in any way nor seeing the face down card in any way?

In Step 3, Jack turns the 4 cards face up --> does it turn them all in once? Once at the ime? Relevant? Does he shuffle the 5 cards all together (before turning the 4 up), put them all face up and guess what the 5th card was? does he do something relevant before predicting the 5th card? E.g. he simply looks at the remaining 47 cards in the deck and deduce the 5th?

Is the first card taken before picked up at random as well? Is this the card guessed/predicted right? Is a connection made with the names of the cards? Are various connections possible according to what are the 4 face up cards? Are the connections obvious as soon as he 4 cards are made face up? (e.g. if 4 figures of a suit are turned face up of course he fifth cannot be a figure of that suit) Is the sum of the cards' values relevant? Does he guess the position of the 5th card in a scale with other cards? Is the color of the cards'back (i.e. red or blue) relevant?

So not sure if digging too much on this will improve but I'll try. The possible unique combinations of 4 cards, if we call figures F and numbers N are:
N-N-N-N
F-F-F-F
F-F-N-N
F-F-F-N
N-N-N-F
There are 4 suits, 4 F per suit and 9 N per suit. There is no way he could guess if the face down card is an N or a F (unless a trick in shuffling/card order is made....e.g. the card chose is put in a place such that he could see it. I am assuming that he deduces the face down card rather than "predicting" it) and we spotted it by saying that it did not matter if cards were N or F. Is the connection made for the guessed card possible for all the remaining 47 cards in the deck? Something that, given the revealed cards, they all have in common? Relevant that a suit will be repeated twice?
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Re: [Balin] Please choose an Egyptian hieroglyph

Postby Balin » Wed May 27, 2020 1:19 pm

Ok to be sure: relevant that the cards are 5? To an extent Is 5 the minimum number in order to "force" a connection? FA, as... Could the connection be made with 4 cards? ...the connection is made with only the four cards With 6?
Can we assume that the cards are shuffled Yes and J does not know the order of the cards in the deck? No! And that David picks all the 5 cards at random without D touching them in any way nor seeing the face down card in any way? The four cards Yes, the other one No!

In Step 3, Jack turns the 4 cards face up --> does it turn them all in once? Once at the ime? Could be either Relevant? No
Does he shuffle the 5 cards all together (before turning the 4 up), put them all face up and guess what the 5th card was? No does he do something relevant before predicting the 5th card? By the context of your question, No E.g. he simply looks at the remaining 47 cards in the deck and deduce the 5th? No

Is the first card taken before picked up at random as well? No! Is this the card guessed/predicted right? Yes! Is a connection made with the names of the cards? And Yes Are various connections possible according to what are the 4 face up cards? ...and Yes.

I think I can call it here.

****SPOILER****

Jon is a magician performing a card trick. Jon shuffles the deck, sneaks a look at the top card, and asks David to pick a card. He forces the top card to David, then has David hand him four cards at random. He riffles the cards by his ear, saying the cards are telling him what David's chosen card is, then turns the four cards face up. Knowing what card David has, Jon improvises connections between the four cards, invariably leading to David's chosen card.

As an example (I'm using a random number generator for all of these cards), say David's card is the 5 of Diamonds, and the four cards Jon has are the 8 of Diamonds, 10 of Hearts, Queen of Diamonds, and 9 of Spades. Jon might say, "There is one black card, which can be set aside. There are two diamonds here, indicating your card is a diamond. But there are two diamonds, and the other red card is a 10. Therefore the cards are telling me to divide that number 10 by two. Is your card the 5 of Diamonds?"

Additionally, "David" was named for David Copperfield, and "Jon" for Jon Dorenbos, a former NFL long snapper who performed card tricks on
America's Got Talent and finished third.

Nice job!
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Re: [Balin] Please choose an Egyptian hieroglyph (*FORCED*)

Postby Earnest » Wed May 27, 2020 3:48 pm

Woh this I can do with my friends. Nice one!
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Re: [Balin] Please choose an Egyptian hieroglyph (*FORCED*)

Postby WiZ » Wed May 27, 2020 8:25 pm

Thank you for introducing me to Only Connect, which is already making serious inroads into my attentiveness to safeguarding our land title register.
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