[Doriana] Not a mystery novel

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[Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Doriana » Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:24 am

"Thus, the mean drunks are easy, if you remember the order of the presidents."
Can you explain how the author of the book that I'm reading comes to this conclusion at the end of a chapter?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Mimino » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:03 am

"mean" as in "average"? as in "evil"?
"easy" as in "easy to handle"?
Exactly two presidents? of a country? of the same country? in office at the same time?
Did they issue a common order?
Did this happen in the 17th century?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Enjay » Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:37 pm

Is a mnemonic relevant?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Doriana » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:05 pm

Mimino
"mean" as in "average"? no as in "evil"? yes
"easy" as in "easy to handle"? yes
Exactly two presidents? no, more than that of a country? yes of the same country? yes in office at the same time? no
Did they issue a common order? no, FA
Did this happen in the 17th century? no

Enjay
Is a mnemonic relevant? no
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Enjay » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:50 pm

Is the book a novel? Fiction? Non-fiction? Instructional? Is the author discussing how to handle nasty drunk people? By 'order', does it mean the order in which the presidents governed? Alphabetical order? Some other kind of way of ordering them? A different meaning of 'order'?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Doriana » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:18 am

Enjay
Is the book a novel? Fiction? Non-fiction? this Instructional? Is the author discussing how to handle nasty drunk people? yes By 'order', does it mean the order in which the presidents governed? this Alphabetical order? Some other kind of way of ordering them? A different meaning of 'order'?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby RedWine » Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:48 pm

Are all presidents need to be remembered in chronological order? Or just some? If some, did they govern one after another? Are relevant presidents here the presidents of United States?
Does the order that needs to be remembered include current president?
Would it suffice to remember only last names? Only first names? Only full names? Are more features of the presidents relevant?

In order to handle a "mean drunk", should someone tell them certain names of presidents? Ask them about presidents? Are names of presidents some kind of a metaphor for several steps of handling a "mean drunk"? Are initials relevant?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Doriana » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:56 pm

RedWine
Are all presidents need to be remembered in chronological order? Or just some? If some, did they govern one after another? Are relevant presidents here the presidents of United States? yes
Does the order that needs to be remembered include current president?
Would it suffice to remember only last names? Only first names? Only full names? Are more features of the presidents relevant?
I can only say "possibly" to all others, because the book doesn't specify this any further.

In order to handle a "mean drunk", should someone tell them certain names of presidents? Ask them about presidents? Are names of presidents some kind of a metaphor for several steps of handling a "mean drunk"? Are initials relevant? no to all
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Konnie » Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:00 am

Are the instructions aimed at a specific audience? If so, bartenders? Servers? Bouncers?

Is this instruction based on a specific situation with mean drunks? Like when they get violent? When they bother other patrons? When they try to drive? How to know when to stop serving someone?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Doriana » Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:11 am

Konnie
Are the instructions aimed at a specific audience? no, and "instructions" is not really the best word here. If so, bartenders? Servers? Bouncers?

Is this instruction based on a specific situation with mean drunks? yes Like when they get violent? yes When they bother other patrons? When they try to drive? How to know when to stop serving someone? FA to all others
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Konnie » Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:17 am

Could one handle voilent drunks with this "tip" in any place, or is it aimed at even more specific circumstances? In a bar? At a party? At home?

Are names the important aspect to remember? Or a certain political trait? A personal trait?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Doriana » Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:38 am

Konnie
Could one handle voilent drunks with this "tip" in any place, no! or is it aimed at even more specific circumstances? yes In a bar? At a party? At home? no to all

Are names the important aspect to remember? Or a certain political trait? A personal trait? All are possible, but it's not specified in the book
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby irishelk » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:16 pm

Is the book a history book? Memoir? Regarding neurology or psychology? Human biology? Some other science?
Are the drunks human?

By remembering the order of the presidents, are you sort of priming yourself to do something else? To remember something else? Or is remembering the presidents just an indication that you will be able to handle the mean drunks?

Would you have to remember the presidents of the US, or could it be the rulers of any country? Could it be the states in alphabetical order? Could it be a memorized poem?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Doriana » Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:47 pm

irishelk
Is the book a history book? Memoir? this Regarding neurology or psychology? Human biology? Some other science? the author is a neuroscientist and primatologist, although that's not really relevant for the puzzle
Are the drunks human? yes

By remembering the order of the presidents, are you sort of priming yourself to do something else? To remember something else? Or is remembering the presidents just an indication that you will be able to handle the mean drunks? no to all

Would you have to remember the presidents of the US, yes or could it be the rulers of any country? Could it be the states in alphabetical order? Could it be a memorized poem? no to rest
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Enjay » Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:43 pm

Is he suggesting that at the moment when you need to handle the mean drunks, you should bring to mind the order of the presidents? Is he suggesting that if you can recall the order of the presidents, that indicates it will be easy for you to handle the mean drunks (eg if you remember the order of the presidents, that means you paid attention in school, so you will also remember some other crucial fact?)

If someone did not know the order of the presidents but had a book with them that told them, would it help to consult this book when they needed to handle drunks?

Would this work in all countries? Only in the US? Would it work for speakers of all languages? Only English?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Doriana » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:50 am

Enjay
Is he suggesting that at the moment when you need to handle the mean drunks, you should bring to mind the order of the presidents? BLOOPER/CLARIFICATION: "Handling mean drunks" isn't quite correct. It should rather be "handling a situation that involves mean drunks". The answer to that is yesish. Is he suggesting that if you can recall the order of the presidents, that indicates it will be easy for you to handle the mean drunks (eg if you remember the order of the presidents, that means you paid attention in school, so you will also remember some other crucial fact?) no

If someone did not know the order of the presidents but had a book with them that told them, would it help to consult this book when they needed to handle drunks? probably, same clarification as above

Would this work in all countries? no Only in the US? It would not work in the US. Would it work for speakers of all languages? no Only English? the scenario is most likely to occur with speakers of English
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Enjay » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:23 pm

Would remembering the order of the presidents help you to sober up a drunk person? To make them less mean/violent? To protect yourself or others from them? To convince them to do something? Not to do something?

Would it help in a situation where there is one mean drunk? More?

Is this advice relevant for people of a particular profession?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Doriana » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:12 am

Enjay
Would remembering the order of the presidents help you to sober up a drunk person? To make them less mean/violent? To protect yourself or others from them? To convince them to do something? Not to do something? no to all

Would it help in a situation where there is one mean drunk? yes More? The book only describes situations with one drunk, but I guess it would also work for more than one.

Is this advice relevant for people of a particular profession? No, but people of certain professions are more likely to encounter this situation in the first place. Explore.
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Konnie » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:59 am

Is the occupation more likely to encounter said situation police officers? Are the drunks in jail? Being arrested?

Are the drunks, being violent, in a fight? Domestic violence relevant?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Doriana » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:33 am

Is the occupation more likely to encounter said situation police officers? Are the drunks in jail? Being arrested? no to all

Are the drunks, being violent, in a fight? possibly Domestic violence relevant? no. This only works with people who are drunk in public.
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Mimino » Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:21 pm

The order of the presidents as in chronological order? alphabetical order? something else?
The first 5, 10, 20 presidents? the last 5, 10, 20 presidents? all presidents?
Would it not work in the US because there even the mean drunks would know the order of the presidents?
Situation involving a mean drunk: a fight?
Would such situation occur in a particular place? in a pub? in the open street? in public transport? in a soccer stadium?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Doriana » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:17 am

Mimino
The order of the presidents as in chronological order? this alphabetical order? something else?
The first 5, 10, 20 presidents? the last 5, 10, 20 presidents? all presidents? this
Would it not work in the US because there even the mean drunks would know the order of the presidents? no
Situation involving a mean drunk: a fight? possibly
Would such situation occur in a particular place? yes in a pub? in the open street? this in public transport? in a soccer stadium?

There's an underlying FA in most questions up to now, try to solve that first.
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Solong » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:09 pm

Are the political parties relevant?
Is the order of succession relevant?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Doriana » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:47 pm

Solong
Are the political parties relevant?
Is the order of succession relevant?
no to both

All that the person needs to know about the presidents of the United States is their chronological order, and maybe some (fun) facts about their lives. You should focus on the situation.
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Solong » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:07 am

Hmmm. I consider myself something of a history buff, but I'm not sure I could name all the presidents in proper order without forgetting or mixing up 1 or 2. Is that the idea? get the mean drunks to try to remember the order of the presidents & that would make them concentrate & quiet them down?

Why are 'mean' drunks specified? Would the technique work just as well for noisy or rowdy drunks?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Doriana » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:20 am

Hmmm. I consider myself something of a history buff, but I'm not sure I could name all the presidents in proper order without forgetting or mixing up 1 or 2. Is that the idea? no get the mean drunks to try to remember the order of the presidents & that would make them concentrate & quiet them down? no, same underlying FA

Why are 'mean' drunks specified? Would the technique work just as well for noisy maybe or rowdy drunks? probably. However, it would not work for friendly drunks.
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Solong » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:18 pm

The drunks are not expected to remember the order of the presidents (when it's difficult enough for me, cold sober!) but the people who are trying to deal with them are, right?
But they (both the drunks and the other parties) are not US citizens, right?
And as for knowing a few "fun facts," .....I know a few 'fun facts' but then I'm a trivia freak. How many like us are there? (That's rhetorical; you don't have to answer!)
But maybe we could have a recap, please?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Doriana » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:17 pm

Solong
The drunks are not expected to remember the order of the presidents (when it's difficult enough for me, cold sober!) but the people who are trying to deal with them are, right? correct
But they (both the drunks and the other parties) are not US citizens, right? no! The drunks are not, but the others are
And as for knowing a few "fun facts," .....I know a few 'fun facts' but then I'm a trivia freak. How many like us are there? (That's rhetorical; you don't have to answer!)
But maybe we could have a recap, please? sure

RECAP
In a memoir that I'm reading, the author describes a way to handle a situation involving a mean and potentially violent drunk person in public. Remembering the presidents of the United States in chronological order plays a vital part in this strategy. This does not work in the US, but the person remembering the presidents has to be a US citizen. HINT: There's another person involved besides the drunk and American.
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Solong » Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:51 am

So....an American citizen is dealing with a potentially violent drunk in some foreign place, correct? Or with a mean foreign drunk in an American town or city?
Is the other person involved a policeman? Is the other person actually present in the flesh? Does the other person actually exist, as an individual, or is he/she just a concept?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Doriana » Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:25 pm

So....an American citizen is dealing with a potentially violent drunk in some foreign place, correct? correct, and find out more about that foreign place Or with a mean foreign drunk in an American town or city? no
Is the other person involved a policeman? no Is the other person actually present in the flesh? yes Does the other person actually exist, as an individual, or is he/she just a concept? The other person actually exists and is usually a H/A/M.
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Enjay » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:04 pm

Is the person expected to say anything out loud while remembering the order of the presidents? If so, to the drunk? To the third person? To themselves?

Is it relevant that remembering the order is likely tricky and might take some thinking time?

Does the drunk in this scenario speak English? Relevant? Does the third person? Relevant? Is the third person's nationality relevant? Are they American? From the place where this is occurring?

Is this only helpful in one specific foreign place? In anywhere outside the US? In a number of places? In a specific country? Continent? Culture?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Doriana » Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:58 am

Enjay
Is the person expected to say anything out loud while remembering the order of the presidents? yes If so, to the drunk? no To the third person? yes To themselves? no

Is it relevant that remembering the order is likely tricky and might take some thinking time? no

Does the drunk in this scenario speak English? irrel Relevant? no Does the third person? yes Relevant? yes Is the third person's nationality relevant? yes, insofar as they are from the place where this is occuring Are they American? no From the place where this is occurring? yes

Is this only helpful in one specific foreign place? a number of places would work, see next answers In anywhere outside the US? no In a number of places? yes In a specific country? several countries, see next answer Continent? In the book, the scenario takes places in Kenya, and a number of other African countries would work Culture? some cultural aspects are relevant
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Solong » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:02 pm

Are the countries members or former members of the British Commonwealth? but trying to remember "in order categorical, all the kings of England and all the fights historical" would not be (as) effective?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Sundowner » Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:00 pm

Does it have to be a country where English is widely spoken?
Would something similar work in Senegal with French presidents? (given that the speaker is a French national or otherwise fluent in French)
if not: would it not work because the list of French presidents is too short?
Would it work with the list of Japanese Emperors? with the list of Popes?
Would the one who knows the order of US presidents tell a story to the local person? a story involving all presidents in chronological order? Does he expect the local person to know the order of US presidents?
Would it also work if he comes up with fictional names?
Relevant that Barack Obama's ancestors are from Kenya?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Doriana » Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:19 pm

Solong
Are the countries members or former members of the British Commonwealth? not necessarily, but the scenario is more likely to occur in (former) commonwealth countries but trying to remember "in order categorical, all the kings of England and all the fights historical" would not be (as) effective? it would (probably) work if the person was British, not American

Sundowner
Does it have to be a country where English is widely spoken? yes
Would something similar work in Senegal with French presidents? (given that the speaker is a French national or otherwise fluent in French) possibly
if not: would it not work because the list of French presidents is too short? n/a
Would it work with the list of Japanese Emperors? with the list of Popes? possibly
Would the one who knows the order of US presidents tell a story to the local person? no a story involving all presidents in chronological order? no Does he expect the local person to know the order of US presidents? more like the other way round! good q!
Would it also work if he comes up with fictional names? no
Relevant that Barack Obama's ancestors are from Kenya? no (The scenario described in the book happened c. 1980)
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Enjay » Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:08 pm

Does the person recite the presidents to the third person? Does the third person necessarily know the correct order? Is the third person an authority figure? A police officer?

Is remembering the presidents intended to prove that the person is American? To cause a distraction? To change the topic of conversation?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Doriana » Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:29 pm

Enjay
Does the person recite the presidents to the third person? yes Does the third person necessarily know the correct order? Not necessarily, but it's likely Is the third person an authority figure? yesish A police officer? no

Is remembering the presidents intended to prove that the person is American? To cause a distraction? To change the topic of conversation? no to all
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Enjay » Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:53 pm

So there are three people involved in this scenario: an American visiting Kenya, a drunk and violent Kenyan, and another Kenyan person who is more or less a type of authority figure? And in order to handle a situation involving the drunk, the American recites the presidents to the authority figure? Does the authority figure ask the American to do this?

Is the drunk person present at the time this is occurring? Does the American know the drunk person? Does the American know the other Kenyan? Do the two Kenyans know each other? Is the American trying to stop someone getting hurt? Getting in trouble? Does the non-drunk Kenyan have some kind of legal authority? Authority given to him by his job? Is he physically threatening?

Dies the drunk person need to hear the American reciting the presidents? If the American got a few wrong, and the authority figure noticed, would that mean that the American failed to achieve whatever he was hoping to achieve?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Sundowner » Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:20 pm

Would the authority figure simply tell the drunk to behave in the presence of educated people? And as a proof of his education he would have the American recite the US presidents in chronological order?
Would the drunk respect the authority of the other Kenyan? is the other Kenyan a chief of some sort? the mayor of the village? a wealthy man? a man with western education?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Doriana » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:19 pm

Enjay

So there are three people involved in this scenario: an American visiting Kenya, a drunk and violent Kenyan, and another Kenyan person who is more or less a type of authority figure? correct And in order to handle a situation involving the drunk, the American recites the presidents to the authority figure? yes Does the authority figure ask the American to do this? yes

Is the drunk person present at the time this is occurring? No, good question! Does the American know the drunk person? probably not Does the American know the other Kenyan? probably not Do the two Kenyans know each other? yes Is the American trying to stop someone getting hurt? Getting in trouble? Does the non-drunk Kenyan have some kind of legal authority? no to all of these Authority given to him by his job? yes Is he physically threatening? no

Dies the drunk person need to hear the American reciting the presidents? No, good question! If the American got a few wrong, and the authority figure noticed, would that mean that the American failed to achieve whatever he was hoping to achieve? probably not

Sundowner

Would the authority figure simply tell the drunk to behave in the presence of educated people? yes And as a proof of his education he would have the American recite the US presidents in chronological order? no
Would the drunk respect the authority of the other Kenyan? yes is the other Kenyan a chief of some sort? the mayor of the village? a wealthy man? no to these a man with western education? possibly
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Sundowner » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:46 pm

Does the American at any time recite the American presidents to the Kenyan authority figure? if so: before meeting the drunk? afterwards?
Does authority figure's job require some degree of education? is it a government job?
Does (or did) he work in this village? Does he live there? Was he born there? Did he spend all his life in this village? Did he attend a high school? a university? in a large city? abroad? in America?
Does he still work in this job? did he work all his lifetime in this job?
Does his authority (also partly) come from his age? from the time he used to work in this job? from achievements during his work life?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Enjay » Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:15 pm

Is the aim of reciting the presidents to convince the authority figure to help in calming down the drunk?
Is this plan based on the assumption that the drunk will likely listen to the authority figure, but not to the American?
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Re: [Doriana] Not a mystery novel

Postby Doriana » Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:47 pm

I'll spoil this, because it seems to be heading nowhere and I don't have the book any more so I can't double-check my answers.

********SPOILER********

The book "A Primate's Memoir" by Robert M. Sapolsky describes his life and adventures as a field biologist in Kenya in the 70s and 80s. He also tells some anecdotes about living in Africa as an American, one of which is about a situation involving drunks in a village:
Whenever there's an aggressive, violent drunk in a village, the local school teacher will intervene and appease the drunk, who will be embarrassed by his behaviour in the presence of an authority figure. The teacher will then invite the American to his place to make some small talk, during which he will quiz him on American presidents. So, if you remember the order of the presidents, you will get out of the situation unharmed - by the drunk and the teacher alike ;)


PS: Just posted a new puzzle :)
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