[invisiblemimsy] Little Monsters

[invisiblemimsy]

When they were small, my two boys used to drive me crazy with their constant fighting. So I instigated a 'punishment' which kept them quiet, typically for an hour or more. But they liked it so much that they would fight in order to get the punishment!

[Balin]

Did their punishment involve going to a certain location? Doing a certain thing?
Would the boys be together for the punishment? In the same location? Doing the same thing?

[invisiblemimsy]

Did their punishment involve going to a certain location? yesish, for svv of 'location' Doing a certain thing? yes
Would the boys be together for the punishment? yes In the same location? yes Doing the same thing? yes

[Zanreo]

"svv of location" - a certain part of a room? Did they make a game out of the punishment?

[invisiblemimsy]

"svv of location" - a certain part of a room? Yes Did they make a game out of the punishment? Kind of... more of a challenge than a game

[Earnest]

Would the punishment be perceived as such if you had applied it just to one of them? Did the punishment distract them from fighting? Is it something usually perceived as boring/cruel by children? Did the punishment consist in something repetitive? Hard to carry out for children? Time wasting? E.g. counting something? Writing something? Doing the homework? Eating vegetables? Cleaning? Reading a book? Others (e.g. not doing something)? That forced them not to fight? Not to move? To be silent? Were they incentivized to obey the first time you 'punished' them? If so, by a final prize? Relevant? Did they compete with each other? Or they cooperated together in order to gain something relevant? Did they end up carrying out the punishment in the minor time possible, hence making it useless?

Room --> their bedroom? Kitchen? bathroom? Other room? In a corner of the room? Face to the wall? Were they on the same part of the room? On opposite sides? opposite corners? Did they see each other? Is technology relevant?
Were you in the same room? Does the punishment become harder and harder the more is applied? Simpler and simpler (because they get used to it maybe)? No changes in terms of difficulty? Did the challenge consist in: carrying out the punishment in the least time possible? In the best way possible? To be judged the best by you?

[invisiblemimsy]

Would the punishment be perceived as such if you had applied it just to one of them? It needed both of them to take part Did the punishment distract them from fighting? Not distract as such, but it caused them to stop Is it something usually perceived as boring/cruel by children? boring Did the punishment consist in something repetitive? no Hard to carry out for children? yes Time wasting? yes E.g. counting something? Writing something? Doing the homework? Eating vegetables? Cleaning? Reading a book? no to these Others (e.g. not doing something)? explore That forced them not to fight? Not to move? yesish To be silent? yesish Were they incentivized to obey the first time you 'punished' them? If so, by a final prize? yes Relevant? yes Did they compete with each other? yes Or they cooperated together in order to gain something relevant? Did they end up carrying out the punishment in the minor time possible, hence making it useless? no to these

Room --> their bedroom? Kitchen? bathroom? Other room? exact room n/r In a corner of the room? Face to the wall? this Were they on the same part of the room? yes On opposite sides? opposite corners? Did they see each other? yes Is technology relevant? no
Were you in the same room? yes or an adjacent room Does the punishment become harder and harder the more is applied? yes Simpler and simpler (because they get used to it maybe)? No changes in terms of difficulty? Did the challenge consist in: carrying out the punishment in the least time possible? no but explore In the best way possible? To be judged the best by you? no judgment was necessary

[JenBurdoo]

Were they made to stand still? Be absolutely silent? A comparable challenge? Did you intend them to compete at it?

[Earnest]

Sign language relevant? Rock paper scissors? Mimes relevant? Santa? Toys? Painting?

Could they turn? Avoid to look at the wall? Or was there something relevant on the wall? Looking at the wall was part of the punishment? Did they touch the wall? Did they guess something? Did they search something? Think? Solve a riddle? Solve a problem? Listening at something? Wait for something to happen (e.g. bells to ring)? Were they angry with each other when punished? If so, was the punishment a way to decalre a winner and calm them down? Were they silent? If so as an indirect consequence of the punishment?, e.g. they were concentrated? Their mouth was otherwise occupied (e.g. in eating?)? Silence was a necessary rule/condition for carrying on the punishment?

Were they relevantly one near the other? In a row? Face to face? Both looking at the wall? Could they interact with each other? Were they free to move? Did they in fact move? Around the room? With a repetitive movement? Looking for something? Is there an objective way to declare the winner? If so is the measure: time? (E.g. the one that stays silent the most is the winner? The one that does not do something for more time wins?) Number of instructions carried out? Number of round won? The most beautiful of something? Can the winner be established also without looking at them directly?

[invisiblemimsy]

Were they made to stand still? yes Be absolutely silent? no A comparable challenge? Did you intend them to compete at it? yes

[invisiblemimsy]

Sign language relevant? Rock paper scissors? Mimes relevant? Santa? Toys? Painting? no to all

Could they turn? no Avoid to look at the wall? Not unless they closed their eyes Or was there something relevant on the wall? yes but possible FA lurking Looking at the wall was part of the punishment? yes Did they touch the wall? yes Did they guess something? Did they search something? Think? Solve a riddle? Solve a problem? Listening at something? none of these Wait for something to happen yes (e.g. bells to ring)? but not this Were they angry with each other when punished? irrel If so, was the punishment a way to decalre a winner and calm them down? it was a way to stop them fighting and give their mum some peace! Were they silent? pretty quiet If so as an indirect consequence of the punishment?, e.g. they were concentrated? this Their mouth was otherwise occupied (e.g. in eating?)? no Silence was a necessary rule/condition for carrying on the punishment? no

Were they relevantly one near the other? Fairly near, not near enough to touch each other though In a row? yes Face to face? no Both looking at the wall? yes Could they interact with each other? they could still talk to each other but they mostly didn't Were they free to move? only very slightly Did they in fact move? only very slightly Around the room? With a repetitive movement? Looking for something? no to these Is there an objective way to declare the winner? yes If so is the measure: time? yes (E.g. the one that stays silent the most is the winner? but not this The one that does not do something for more time wins?) yes Number of instructions carried out? Number of round won? The most beautiful of something? not these Can the winner be established also without looking at them directly? They would know the winner themselves. I would then confirm it

[Earnest]

Is any relevant object present? If you were in another room and they screamed the name of the winner, could you confirm without any doubt which one was the winner even after 1 minute they declared the winner? 5 minutes after they declared? Even after 1 hour?
Is there something relevant between them? In the room where they are? Is balance relevant?

Do they relevantly have to look at the wall? If so, in order not to see what happens behind them? Were there competition had they turned? Can we assume that they looked directly in front of them without looking at the whole wall? (I mean they looked at a single point on the wall) Did they wait for: a sound? Someone to appear? Something to appear? Something to happen (e.g. one of the two stopping to resist?)?

Is movement a key factor to determine the winner? Not moving arms/legs relevant? Moving arms and legs just in a specific way? Did they wait for someone making a false step? Doing something wrong? Is coordination relevant? Doing things simultaneously? Wait for you to say something? Reply to you? Did you give them instructions? Were you active part of the challenge? Are their names relevant? Doing the contrary relevant? Were they relevantly on a row? Could they "go outside of it"? Time passing relevant? (E.g. they count in turns time passing) doing things in turns?

Relevant that the first one in the row could see only the wall while the second one the back of his brother and (maybe) the wall?

[invisiblemimsy]

Is any relevant object present? yes If you were in another room and they screamed the name of the winner, could you confirm without any doubt which one was the winner even after 1 minute they declared the winner? 5 minutes after they declared? Even after 1 hour? I would do it straight away. I was usually in the actual room unless I had popped into the (adjacent) kitchen briefly. I didn't leave it longer than a minute approx.
Is there something relevant between them? enough space so they couldn't touch each other. In the room where they are? no Is balance relevant? possibly a little

Do they relevantly have to look at the wall? yes, unless they close their eyes If so, in order not to see what happens behind them? not this Were there competition had they turned? if either of them turned it would be over Can we assume that they looked directly in front of them without looking at the whole wall? (I mean they looked at a single point on the wall) pretty much Did they wait for: a sound? Someone to appear? Something to appear? Something to happen (e.g. one of the two stopping to resist?) THIS

Is movement a key factor to determine the winner? It's relevant but not the key thing Not moving arms/legs relevant? ditto Moving arms and legs just in a specific way? Did they wait for someone making a false step? Doing something wrong? yes Is coordination relevant? yes Doing things simultaneously? Wait for you to say something? Reply to you? no to these Did you give them instructions? yes Were you active part of the challenge? Are their names relevant? Doing the contrary relevant? no to these Were they relevantly on a row? side by side, relevant Could they "go outside of it"? no Time passing relevant? yes (E.g. they count in turns time passing) doing things in turns? but not this

Relevant that the first one in the row could see only the wall while the second one the back of his brother and (maybe) the wall? FA

[Earnest]

Shoulder to shoulder? Relevantly? If so was there something between their shoulders (e.g. an apple? A ball?) Do they need to make movement coordinated? Make the same movements? Is music relevant? Wii?

[invisiblemimsy]

Shoulder to shoulder? No, because there was a gap between them Relevantly? But relevantly both facing the same wall If so was there something between their shoulders (e.g. an apple? A ball?) No. There was just space between them - enough distance so that they couldn't touch each other. Let's say about 1.5 metres. Do they need to make movement coordinated? Make the same movements? Is music relevant? Wii? no to all

[Earnest]

And they did not even touch the wall right? And we can assume they both normally stand still in front of the same wall (hence not in a corner), right? Or maybe they have legs/arms in some relevant position? Was something drawn on the floor (e.g. a circle/ a line)? Were there windows on the wall? Relevant? Do they have to maintain a constant distance between them relevantly? Does something happen in the middle (e.g. there was a relevant object?)? Or it's just a rule of the game that they have to have some space between?

Object = something thay have on their hands? Food? A projector? A whistle? Something on the wall? Do they have to do something in turns? Something on their head? Something that was in your hands? That you used? That they used? An obkect that measures something relevantly (e.g. pressure, temperature,, heart beats)? An object stimulating them to do something they should resist to (e.g. a baby laughing and they should not laugh? )?

Did they wear something relevant? Did their feet touch the wall?
Do they look something relevant? Red light - green light relevant? Animals relevant? Pets?
Had they not been face to the wall, would the puzzle have worked? If not, because there was something relevant on the wall? Because they could have seen something relevant? Because the punishment would have been really simple?

When someone stopped to resist: something fall down? Someone start breathing? Someone start talking? Someone start smiling? Someone fall? Someone scratch himself? Someone open his eyes? Someone says somethig wrong? Make a false step? Lose balance? Assume another position? Don't follow instructions? Others?

[invisiblemimsy]

And they did not even touch the wall right? They DID touch the wall. And we can assume they both normally stand still in front of the same wall (hence not in a corner), right? yes Or maybe they have legs/arms in some relevant position? yope Was something drawn on the floor (e.g. a circle/ a line)? Were there windows on the wall? Relevant? Do they have to maintain a constant distance between them relevantly? yes Does something happen in the middle no... (e.g. there was a relevant object?)? but there IS a relevant object Or it's just a rule of the game that they have to have some space between? yes, so they can't touch each other

Object = something thay have on their hands? Food? A projector? A whistle? Something on the wall? yes Do they have to do something in turns? Something on their head? yes Something that was in your hands? That you used? That they used? An obkect that measures something relevantly (e.g. pressure, temperature,, heart beats)? An object stimulating them to do something they should resist to not directly (e.g. a baby laughing and they should not laugh? )? no to the rest

Did they wear something relevant? Did their feet touch the wall?
Do they look something relevant? Red light - green light relevant? Animals relevant? Pets?
Had they not been face to the wall, would the puzzle have worked? NO If not, because there was something relevant on the wall? yes, slight -ish Because they could have seen something relevant? Because the punishment would have been really simple? no to the rest

When someone stopped to resist: something fall down? YES Someone start breathing? Someone start talking? Someone start smiling? Someone fall? Someone scratch himself? Someone open his eyes? Someone says somethig wrong? Make a false step? Lose balance? possibly Assume another position? probably Don't follow instructions? yes Others? perhaps

[Earnest]

To be clear: there was just one object which was between them? And on the wall? Or there are 2 different objects?

Object between them: a chair? A table? A piece of furniture? Somethig on the floor? (E.g. a carpet?) Something higher than them? Something that can be easily moved from one room to another?
Something on the wall: something that protudes from the wall? Something commonly found on wall? That can be removed from the wall? A picture? A scale drawn on the wall? Something on a shelf? Does the object touch the ground? Is it just lying on the wall? Is it a piece of furniture?

Was the something on their head in balance? Was the something on the wall? Is something like a counterweight relevant (e.g. something in balance thanks to a counterweight)? Something that, each time they do something wrong is consumed? Is there a rope connecting them to the object on the wall?

Are targets relevant? Baskets? Does the something falling down: crush on the floor? Bounce on the floor? Splatter? Opens on the ground? Others?

Can their activity be classified as an housework?

Would a sneeze make the something on their head fall down? Or maybe had they bent their head forward? The something on the wall? Something fall down from their heads? Is the something on their head: a hat? Something spheric? A liquid? An elmet? Do they keep it on their heads with their arms? Directly? Indirectly? Is there an interaction with the object on the wall and the object on their heads? One keeps the other in balance? Are they connected through a rope? Or not connected at all? Is the object on the wall between them? In front of both? Far from them?

[invisiblemimsy]

To be clear: there was just one object which was between them? And on the wall? Or there are 2 different objects? Two objects - one per boy - between them and the wall. To be clear, it goes boy-object-wall for each of them.

Object between them: a chair? A table? A piece of furniture? Somethig on the floor? (E.g. a carpet?) no to these Something higher than them? no, explore Something that can be easily moved from one room to another? yes, very much so
Something on the wall: something that protudes from the wall? no Something commonly found on wall? no That can be removed from the wall? yes A picture? yesish A scale drawn on the wall? Something on a shelf? Does the object touch the ground? Is it just lying on the wall? Is it a piece of furniture? no to the rest

Was the something on their head in balance? no Was the something on the wall? 'on' is not the right word though Is something like a counterweight relevant (e.g. something in balance thanks to a counterweight)? Something that, each time they do something wrong is consumed? Is there a rope connecting them to the object on the wall? no to these

Are targets relevant? Baskets? Does the something falling down: crush on the floor? Bounce on the floor? Splatter? Opens on the ground? Others? Haha! no to all

Can their activity be classified as an housework? no

Would a sneeze make the something on their head fall down? possibly, it depends Or maybe had they bent their head forward? possibly, it depends The something on the wall? Something fall down from their heads? Is the something on their head: a hat? Something spheric? A liquid? An elmet? Do they keep it on their heads with their arms? Directly? Indirectly? no to these Is there an interaction with the object on the wall and the object on their heads? FA. There is only one object per boy. One keeps the other in balance? Are they connected through a rope? Or not connected at all? FA to these too Is the object on the wall between them? In front of both? this Far from them? no

[Earnest]

Do they have a piece of paper on the forehead? Does the object move according to the movement of their heads?

So boy-obj-wall: can we say that the obj fills the gap/space between the boys and the wall?

Picture-ish: on their head? On the wall? Between them? "On" not the right pronoun...so the righ word is: leaning on the wall?

[invisiblemimsy]

Do they have a piece of paper on the forehead? Yes! Does the object move according to the movement of their heads? Yes

So boy-obj-wall: can we say that the obj fills the gap/space between the boys and the wall? Yes

Picture-ish: on their head? On the wall? Between them? yes "On" not the right pronoun...so the right word is: leaning on the wall? So each boy has a piece of paper, which has a picture on, between their forehead and the wall

[Earnest]

The more they sweat and the more the probability that it will fall? Is the aim not to let it fall down? Relevant which picture was there? Could they see the picture of the other? Is it a post-it? Is it glued on the forehead? Do they keep it thereM does something relevantly keep the picture on their forehead? Do they lean the head against the wall?

[invisiblemimsy]

The more they sweat and the more the probability that it will fall? no Is the aim not to let it fall down? yes Relevant which picture was there? yes Could they see the picture of the other? no Is it a post-it? no Is it glued on the forehead? no Do they keep it thereM yes does something relevantly keep the picture on their forehead? yes... Do they lean the head against the wall? ...this

[Earnest]

Did you know which pictures were there? Were the pictures different for the two? So that you know who won for sure because one of the two (the winner) was able to spot the picture of the other (the loser)?

[invisiblemimsy]

Did you know which pictures were there? yes Were the pictures different for the two? no, they were the same. Good question. So that you know who won for sure because one of the two (the winner) was able to spot the picture of the other (the loser)? so no

[GalFisk]

Were they drawings? Photos? Postcards? Framed pictures? Did they compete in who could hold it there the longest? Who could do the most daring stunt while not dropping it? Who could bend the rules the most?

[invisiblemimsy]

Were they drawings? Photos? Postcards? Framed pictures? none of these Did they compete in who could hold it there the longest? yes, exactly Who could do the most daring stunt while not dropping it? no Who could bend the rules the most? no

[Earnest]

Was the front of the picture turned relevantly face to the wall? Or on their fronthead so that when it fall they could see it? Did they know that the two pictures were the same? Did they relevantly interact with each other during the challenge (e.g. one tries to make the other laugh by saying something relevant/ try to distract the other...)?

P.s. what are we left to discover?

[invisiblemimsy]

Was the front of the picture turned relevantly face to the wall? Irrel Or on their fronthead so that when it fall they could see it? On their forehead, yes. It would be obvious to both boys if one of the pictures fell. Did they know that the two pictures were the same? yes Did they relevantly interact with each other during the challenge (e.g. one tries to make the other laugh by saying something relevant/ try to distract the other...)? Yes, although it wouldn't have mattered if they didn't.

P.s. what are we left to discover? You need to discover what the picture was, and what happened if one picture fell.

[Earnest]

to be sure: did they know in advance the subject of the picture? and a child is considered loser also if he just take the picture his hand and simply broke the head away from the wall? (I mean the picture does not have necessarily to fall right? Relevant?) Did they somehow modify the picture by taking it on the wall with their head? Was there a bowl full of water on the floor so that when a picture fell it would have been irreversibly wet?
drive me crazy with their constant fighting. --> were they fighting for something relevant? Pictures? Cards? Or they fight in general not for something relevant to the puzzle?

what the picture was --> is the picture bigger than an A4 sheet? were the pictures used always the same? Is the picture's subject: familiar to them? Scary? Is card collection relevant? Is the picture a photograph? Is the picture of a character? Of an historical figure? Of someone famous? Sport/music relevant? Of a cat? Of Harry Potter? Of some fantasy character? Is it a ticket? A map? a blank sheet? colored? a stamp? Picture from a book? Pictures that can commonly be found on the internet? In certain shops? Brochures? a poster? Are such pictures commonly found in couples?

what happened if one picture fell --> relevant how the loser gives up? Does he declare it before relevantly? does their head relevantly beat on the wall? does the winner win a price? Win the picture of the other? Avoid a punishment? would the loser try to take the card and put it back on his forehead? would the other child (the one whose card did not fall down) continue to stay with his forehead on the wall? Would he have spotted the subject of the picture? Would he have said it laugher? mmm...problem is that also the other brother would have known the subject of the picture....Does the picture fall on the ground? did they try to catch it before it fell?

[invisiblemimsy]

to be sure: did they know in advance the subject of the picture? YES and a child is considered loser also if he just take the picture his hand and simply broke the head away from the wall? yes (I mean the picture does not have necessarily to fall right? correct Relevant?) Basically, if they break contact with the wall in any way, that will end the 'punishment' Did they somehow modify the picture by taking it on the wall with their head? no Was there a bowl full of water on the floor so that when a picture fell it would have been irreversibly wet? no
drive me crazy with their constant fighting. --> were they fighting for something relevant? Pictures? Cards? Or they fight in general not for something relevant to the puzzle? boys of that age fight a lot, often for no reason, NR

what the picture was --> is the picture bigger than an A4 sheet? no were the pictures used always the same? yes Is the picture's subject: familiar to them? yes Scary? Is card collection relevant? Is the picture a photograph? Is the picture of a character? no Of an historical figure? yesish Of someone famous? YES Sport/music relevant? Of a cat? Of Harry Potter? Of some fantasy character? Is it a ticket? A map? a blank sheet? colored? a stamp? Picture from a book? no to these Pictures that can commonly be found on the internet? yes In certain shops? in all shops Brochures? a poster? Are such pictures commonly found in couples? no to the rest

what happened if one picture fell --> relevant how the loser gives up? the loser is simply unable to stand there any longer Does he declare it before relevantly? does their head relevantly beat on the wall? no does the winner win a price? yes Win the picture of the other? exactly Avoid a punishment? would the loser try to take the card and put it back on his forehead? no would the other child (the one whose card did not fall down) continue to stay with his forehead on the wall? only until I confirmed the winner Would he have spotted the subject of the picture? they already knew it Would he have said it laugher? mmm...problem is that also the other brother would have known the subject of the picture.... irrel Does the picture fall on the ground? possibly did they try to catch it before it fell? irrel

[Earnest]

Religious picture? Someone random? Always the same person? Presidents? Actors? Movie actors? Real persons? Charachters of comics? People that is famous and known to everybody (e.g. Einstein, Jesus, presidents of USA, pictures on money, famous pictures, famous portraits...)? Just to fans? Singers? Players? Ninja turtles?
A HAM? An HAF?

Does the subject of the picture have any connection with the fact that they keep it on the wall with their head?

[invisiblemimsy]

Religious picture? Someone random? Always the same person? yes Presidents? Actors? Movie actors? Real persons? yes Charachters of comics? People that is famous and known to everybody yes (e.g. Einstein, Jesus, presidents of USA, pictures on money, YES! famous pictures, yes famous portraits...)? yes Just to fans? Singers? Players? Ninja turtles?
A HAM? An HAF? this

Does the subject of the picture have any connection with the fact that they keep it on the wall with their head?
YES, the fact that it's money does. It's an English £5 - so Queen Elizabeth is on the front.

All you have to do now is work out (a) what happens if either of them drops their note, and (b) why they fight to get this 'punishment' again.

[Earnest]

Real persons? yes ---> more royal than real xD

(a) what happens if either of them drops their note --> he would have given it to the winner? The winner would have taken it? He would have started another fight?

(b) why they fight to get this 'punishment' again. --> They always have the same amount and the same exact money at every round right (I mean if in one round one won £10, and they fought the next day, they would have fought to obtain the same exact £10 for which they fought the day before, right?)? Assuming so...I guess that more than doing a profit out of the punishment, they fought in order to obtain the money lost back? So as far as I have understood they end up having £0 or £10, right? Probably the one starting the fight wanted his money back from the brother. Otherwise, they have the incentive to win money every time they fought so...I would have started to fight too ahahahahahah

[invisiblemimsy]

Real persons? yes ---> more royal than real xD

(a) what happens if either of them drops their note --> he would have given it to the winner? The winner would have taken it? Yes, but also... He would have started another fight?

(b) why they fight to get this 'punishment' again. --> They always have the same amount and the same exact money at every round right (I mean if in one round one won £10, Yes, £5 each and they fought the next day, they would have fought to obtain the same exact £10 for which they fought the day before, right?)? Assuming so...I guess that more than doing a profit out of the punishment, they fought in order to obtain the money lost back? OTRT So as far as I have understood they end up having £0 or £10, right? Yes Probably the one starting the fight wanted his money back from the brother. Otherwise, they have the incentive to win money every time they fought so...[b]YES [/b]I would have started to fight too ahahahahahah and yes... You have pretty much got it...

************************$POILER************************

Josh and Dan were always fighting. In order to get some peace, I made them stand facing the wall. I gave each boy a £5 note to press against the wall with his forehead. Whichever one dropped the note first got nothing, and the winner kept both notes. This 'punishment' gave me peace for a couple of hours. Unfortunately, they quickly worked out that if they pretended to fight, they could get the 'punishment'.

As an aside, Dan - the younger - would always win anyway as he was stubborn and could endure any amount of pain for gain!

[Earnest]

Ahahhahahahha hope you figured out another way for having peace. Me and my brother used to fight too a lot and my mum usually punished us with boring food (e.g. vegetables and fish for dinner)