[JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

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[JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:41 am

A man, preparing for a language test, has studied for only a short time, and his instructor feels he is not ready. Yet he passes easily. How?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby Doriana » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:57 am

Relevant which language? If so, Arabic?
Is the test written? oral? Does it test the man's listening comprehension? reading comprehension? writing skills? speaking skills? grammar? vocabulary?
Does the man cheat?
Is the instructor also the one who sets the test? who administers the test? who grades the test?
Relevant why the man takes the test? If so, for his job?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby markobr » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:01 am

Is he being tested in his native language? A language very similar to his native language? A language he has learned before? Is the instructor unaware of his student's previous knowlege.?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby GalFisk » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:25 am

Is he ready? Is the pass an accurate reflection of his skill in the language? Is the test flawed?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:50 pm

Relevant which language? No. If so, Arabic? But yes.
Is the test written? oral? This. Does it test the man's listening comprehension? reading comprehension? writing skills? speaking skills? grammar? vocabulary? Everything, though reading and writing are probably least important.
Does the man cheat? Yope.
Is the instructor also the one who sets the test? who administers the test? who grades the test? No to all.
Relevant why the man takes the test? No. If so, for his job? But yes.

Is he being tested in his native language? A language very similar to his native language? A language he has learned before? Is the instructor unaware of his student's previous knowlege.? No to all.

Is he ready? No. Is the pass an accurate reflection of his skill in the language? No. Is the test flawed? No, but...
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby Doriana » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:06 pm

Does the man expect to pass the test? fail the test?
Does the man exploit a loophole?
Does the man take the test himself? Or does he send someone else to take it for him?

Relevant how the test is administered? If so, face-to-face with an examiner? in a group setting with an examiner? computer-based?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:18 pm

Does the man expect to pass the test? fail the test? Could go either way. He's taking a justifiable risk.
Does the man exploit a loophole? Not precisely, but explore.
Does the man take the test himself? This. Or does he send someone else to take it for him?

Relevant how the test is administered? Yes. If so, face-to-face with an examiner? This. in a group setting with an examiner? computer-based? No.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby GalFisk » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:23 pm

Did he cheat? Did the examiner make a mistake? Was he able to access the answers somehow? Were there definite answers to the test questions? Did the man make other preparations than studying the subject of the test for a short time? Such as studying the test setup? Seeing how others took the test?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:31 pm

Did he cheat? No, but it's arguable he was unethical. Did the examiner make a mistake? Arguably. Was he able to access the answers somehow? Were there definite answers to the test questions? No to both. Did the man make other preparations than studying the subject of the test for a short time? Yes. Such as studying the test setup? Seeing how others took the test? He may have observed or been aware of the testing procedure. But this is not the relevant action.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby Doriana » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:17 pm

Technology relevant at all? Google Translate?

Did the man get any outside help?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:49 pm

Technology relevant at all? Google Translate?

Did the man get any outside help?

No to all.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby Doriana » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:41 pm

Did the man's preparations involve finding out the test questions? finding out something about the examiner? finding out the rubric used to grade the test? preparing materials to take with him? altering the exam room in any way?

Does the man bring anything with him to the exam that's not allowed?
Does he blackmail the examiner? bribe them?

Relevant where the test takes place?

Would the same tactic work for a test that's not a language test?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:44 pm

Did the man's preparations involve finding out the test questions? finding out something about the examiner? finding out the rubric used to grade the test? preparing materials to take with him? This (for SVV of "materials"). altering the exam room in any way? No to the rest.

Does the man bring anything with him to the exam that's not allowed?
Does he blackmail the examiner? bribe them? No to all.

Relevant where the test takes place? No.

Would the same tactic work for a test that's not a language test? Yes, but not many. Depends on the topic, circumstances, and luck.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby GalFisk » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:17 am

Did he bring anything with him that was not forbidden, but still unethical? During the test, did he read any writing, apart from what the test giver presented? Did he relevantly screw with the timing of the test? Such as retaking it? Extending it? Did he screw with the grading? Different parts of the test counting for different fractions of the final result relevant? Were the grading criteria flawed?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:27 pm

Did he bring anything with him that was not forbidden, but still unethical? For SVV of "bring" and "unethical." During the test, did he read any writing, apart from what the test giver presented? Did he relevantly screw with the timing of the test? Such as retaking it? Extending it? Did he screw with the grading? Different parts of the test counting for different fractions of the final result relevant? Were the grading criteria flawed? For SVV of criteria. No to the rest.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby hominid » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:19 pm

Were there words in the language written somewhere? Did he know the relevant information from somewhere else in his life?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby Doriana » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:45 pm

Clothing relevant?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:10 pm

Were there words in the language written somewhere? No. Did he know the relevant information from somewhere else in his life? No, but...

Clothing relevant? No.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby Balin » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:14 pm

Did he prepare answers to give on the test and just memorize those?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby Doriana » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:39 pm

Do his answers actually relate to the questions in a meaningful way? Related WAG: Does the content of the anwers count so little towards to grade that one can pass by uttering random, but grammatically correct sentences?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:53 pm

Did he prepare answers to give on the test and just memorize those? For one relevant question, yes.

Do his answers actually relate to the questions in a meaningful way? Yes. Related WAG: Does the content of the answers count so little towards to grade that one can pass by uttering random, but grammatically correct sentences? He didn't answer randomly, but the answers did ultimately count less towards the grade than something else.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby Doriana » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:32 pm

Did he hope the examiner would pick up on something in his answer and ask all subsequent questions about that?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:37 pm

Did he hope the examiner would pick up on something in his answer and ask all subsequent questions about that? Possibly. He did focus on a single question and answer for the purpose of distracting the examiner.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby Doriana » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:57 pm

Relevant what the question was about? Was it about the man? If so, his family? work? education? hobbies? interests? Was it about politics? history? culture? society? media? sports? entertainment? about the test itself?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:15 pm

Relevant what the question was about? Yes. Was it about the man? Yes. If so, his family? work? education? hobbies? interests? Was it about politics? history? culture? society? media? sports? entertainment? about the test itself? This.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby GalFisk » Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:44 am

Did he distract the examiner? Shock him/her? Flatter? Flirt? Confuse? Annoy? Cause an emotional response? Pretend to have a problem? Give an impression of deserving leniency?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:22 am

Did he distract the examiner? Most likely. Shock him/her? Flatter? Flirt? Confuse? Annoy? Cause an emotional response? Pretend to have a problem? Give an impression of deserving leniency? Possibly, depending on the specifics of his answer, which is not described. No to the rest.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby Doriana » Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:56 am

Did the examiner end up doing most of the talking?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:09 pm

Did the examiner end up doing most of the talking? Irr.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby Doriana » Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:30 pm

Was the question "Are you ready for the test?"? "Are you nervous?"? "Why are you taking the test?"? "Have you taken this test before?"? "Are you prepared for the test?"? "Do you have any questions about the test?"?

Was the question asked in the target language? Did the man answer in the target language?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:12 pm

Was the question "Are you ready for the test?"? "Are you nervous?"? "Why are you taking the test?"? "Have you taken this test before?"? "Are you prepared for the test?"? "Do you have any questions about the test?"? None of these, though questions one and three are reminiscent of the actual question asked.

Was the question asked in the target language? Did the man answer in the target language? Yes to both.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby Enjay » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:17 pm

Did the man know he was going to be asked this question before he started the test? Was the question officially part of the test? More of a warm up before the real test? Was the answer the man prepared one that could be applied to many different questions?

Was the answer he prepared intended to get him a lot of marks? To show lots of language knowledge? For example, if he knows that to get high marks you have to demonstrate use of multiple tenses, he prepared an answer that would use different tenses?

Did the man answer the question truthfully?

Was the relevant question the first one asked? Were more questions asked later? Did the man's answer cause fewer questions to be asked? Easier questions? Questions he was more prepared for? Did his answer cause other questions to have less impact on his score?

Was this a pass/fail exam? Graded? Relevant?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:35 pm

Did the man know he was going to be asked this question before he started the test? Not for certain, but he was fairly sure. Was the question officially part of the test? No. More of a warm up before the real test? Yes. Was the answer the man prepared one that could be applied to many different questions? Possibly.

Was the answer he prepared intended to get him a lot of marks? Yes. To show lots of language knowledge? Likely. For example, if he knows that to get high marks you have to demonstrate use of multiple tenses, he prepared an answer that would use different tenses? Wouldn't be surprised, but that's not the important part.

Did the man answer the question truthfully? Assume yes.

Was the relevant question the first one asked? Yes. Were more questions asked later? Irr. Did the man's answer cause fewer questions to be asked? Probably. Easier questions? Probably. Questions he was more prepared for? Probably. Did his answer cause other questions to have less impact on his score? Assume this.

Was this a pass/fail exam? Assume this. Graded? Relevant? Yes.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby Hobbsicle » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:19 am

Would this work for someone taking a similar test for English? Does he manipulate the question somehow? Or use wordplay? Recognize a quote? Sing a song? Does he answer the question in a way that would have even been somewhat clever for a native speaker?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:13 pm

Would this work for someone taking a similar test for English? Yes. Does he manipulate the question somehow? He answers the question as asked. Or use wordplay? Recognize a quote? Sing a song? No to all. Does he answer the question in a way that would have even been somewhat clever for a native speaker? Possibly. How?

Recap/hint: He passed by anticipating one specific question, and creating a clever, distracting answer to it (the specifics of this answer are irrelevant). What was the question, and how was he able to answer it despite not being an accomplished speaker of the language?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby Enjay » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:37 pm

Would the question be considered small talk? A part of the exam process? Did the question relate to the test-taker? The examiner? Was it intended to put the test-taker at ease? To clarify or confirm some aspect of the exam? To confirm that the test-taker is in the right exam? To establish whether the exam can be started?

Did he memorise in advance a full answer to the question? Did he memorise a deliberately vague answer that he planned to use for any question he got asked? Did his answer to the question somehow get him sympathy from the examiner? Cause the examiner to think he was more proficient in the language than he was?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby wolfier » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:36 am

Did he prepare for a question where the answer does not require full sentences to answer? e.g. Day of week, month, year, planets in the solar system, continents and oceans, numbers, etc?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:51 pm

Would the question be considered small talk? Possibly. A part of the exam process? No. Did the question relate to the test-taker? This. The examiner? Was it intended to put the test-taker at ease? Possibly. To clarify or confirm some aspect of the exam? No. To confirm that the test-taker is in the right exam? No. To establish whether the exam can be started? Possibly.

Did he memorise in advance a full answer to the question? Yes. Did he memorise a deliberately vague answer that he planned to use for any question he got asked? No. Did his answer to the question somehow get him sympathy from the examiner? Cause the examiner to think he was more proficient in the language than he was? This.

Did he prepare for a question where the answer does not require full sentences to answer? e.g. Day of week, month, year, planets in the solar system, continents and oceans, numbers, etc? No.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby Balin » Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:05 pm

svv of "bring," but clothing irrelevant... did the test-taker wear something relevant? Did he wear something he usually didn't wear?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:12 pm

svv of "bring," but clothing irrelevant... did the test-taker wear something relevant? Did he wear something he usually didn't wear? No to both. Clothing irrelevant.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby Enjay » Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:55 pm

Was the thing he "brought" the answer he memorised? Something physical?

Did the man do relevant research beforehand? Consult a native speaker of the language? Did he construct the answer that he memorised from his own knowledge of the language? Copy it from somewhere? Ask someone else to write it for him?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby GalFisk » Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:10 am

Was it a polite but meaningless question? Such as "how are you doing"?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:14 pm

Was the thing he "brought" the answer he memorised? Yes. Something physical? No.

Did the man do relevant research beforehand? Yes. Consult a native speaker of the language? No. Did he construct the answer that he memorised from his own knowledge of the language? Yes. Copy it from somewhere? No. Ask someone else to write it for him? No.

Was it a polite but meaningless question? Such as "how are you doing"? No, it was a genuine question, related to but not part of the exam, asked immediately before he took it.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby GalFisk » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:41 am

Was it a simple question? A yes or no question? "Are you ready to begin?"
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:12 pm

Was it a simple question? In the sense that it was short and straightforward? Yes. In the sense that the examiner was genuinely concerned about the answer, and that the answer had to impress him? No. A yes or no question? No. "Are you ready to begin?" OTRT. But requiring more than a yes or no to answer.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby markobr » Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:44 pm

Was the question about his preparation for the test? About how to begin with the test (e.g. the initial subject to talk about)?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:58 pm

Was the question about his preparation for the test? This. About how to begin with the test (e.g. the initial subject to talk about)?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby Doriana » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:51 pm

Was the question "How did you prepare for the test?"? "How long did you study for the test?"?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:40 pm

Was the question "How did you prepare for the test?"? "How long did you study for the test?" No to both, though still circling around the actual question.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby Vagary » Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:36 pm

Was it more along the lines of "How are you feeling about your preparations for the test?" or "where did you find difficulties in preparation?"
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:50 pm

Was it more along the lines of "How are you feeling about your preparations for the test?" No... But he probably could have "reworked" his answer to answer this one instead of the one he was expecting and got. or "where did you find difficulties in preparation?" This may have been part of his rehearsed answer, but was not the question.

Hint: The reworked answer to such an unexpected question might have started with, "I'm sure you're wondering..."
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby wolfier » Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:43 am

Is the question something like "what makes you think you're ready for the test?", or "i don't think you're ready, why are you here today?" ?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hal tatakalam?

Postby JenBurdoo » Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:20 pm

Is the question something like "what makes you think you're ready for the test?", or "i don't think you're ready, why are you here today?" ?

Got it.



SPOILER



This happened to an impatient British officer applying to join the Arab Legion. He requested quicker testing on his language skills (required to get in), but knew the first question was likely to be something along the lines of "How is it you are ready for this test so quickly?" He wrote and memorized an elaborate answer specifically for that question, and passed.
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